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Thread: SC Deputy Sheriff Fucks Up 1st Amendment

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Sadly that's not the way it works Madeline, at least not down here in the south.

    Not only is it a crime to refuse to show a cop your papers - but even something as simple as refusing to give a cop your name is a crime. It's called resisting an officer without violence. I know this from personal experience because I have been jailed for it.

    The police also have the legal authority to make you exit a baseball game. I know this from personal experience as well (I was barred from any future Football Games under similar circumstances) and when I consorted a lawyer I was told there was nothing I could do. Also - cussing at cops is against the law down here also. So that is unwise to do as well.

    The police down south have a lot more protections and liberties (via local laws) than they do in say a places like New York City. And until a court steps in and calls these kind of laws unconstitutional it's difficult to make a first amendment defense.

    But I have to say - I love the zeal in your argument.
    Your civil rights have been violated, but that does not make what the cops did to you legal. Unconstitutional acts of the government cannot be legal.

    No, the cops cannot bar you from any public space. Permanently? Hell no. Again -- unconstitutional.

    No, the cops cannot arrest you for cursing, regardless of who you direct that speech towards. If it is not inciting a riot, it's protected free speech.

    There are some archaic laws around the country against using "blue language" in public, but they will no longer sustain a prosecution. Apart from the 1st amendment issues, you cannot be prosecuted for a crime that has not been enforced in over 100 years. It's called Selective Enforcement, and it's an affirmative defense. (Anti-adultery laws are also still on the books in many states, and likewise unenforceable.)

    I don't blame you personally for not enforcing your rights. I come across evidence of public corruption virtually every time I leave the house, and I am not spending my life trying to clean up Cleveland government, either. It is not a one-man job.

    But the lawyer you saw was either stupid or corrupt, not wanting the cops to know he correctly advised anyone of their rights. Him you might consider reporting to the state bar association. Odds are, they won't do anything to him apart from send him a letter, but that'll ruin his morning. Dickhead.

    Lawyers are supposed to be the front line defense for citizens, against runaway government power in this country. I hate when they don't fulfill that duty.
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  2. #12
    quichierbichen
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    Here's the South Carolina law regarding disorderly conduct, the charge leveled against this woman:
    Any person who shall (a) be found on any highway or at any public place or public gathering in a grossly intoxicated condition or otherwise conducting himself in a disorderly or boisterous manner, (b) use obscene or profane language on any highway or at any public place or gathering or in hearing distance of any schoolhouse or church or (c) while under the influence or feigning to be under the influence of intoxicating liquor, without just cause or excuse, discharge any gun, pistol or other firearm while upon or within fifty yards of any public road or highway, except upon his own premises, shall be deemed guilty of a felony, punishable by less than a year of confinement. Source: U.S. DOJ “>misdemeanor and upon conviction shall be fined not more than one hundred dollars or be imprisoned for not more than thirty days.
    https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/...code_16-17-530

    I'm pretty sure this law is typical of others enacted in all 50 states. What you appear to be suggesting is that disorderly conduct laws are unconstitutional. Since we've had laws like this for centuries, surely their constitutionality is well-established.
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  3. #13
    quichierbichen
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    There are some archaic laws around the country against using "blue language" in public, but they will no longer sustain a prosecution.
    I'd appreciate more information from you on this point. I'm pretty sure that disorderly conduct laws are enforced all the time.
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  4. #14
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Is it? I think patrons can be required to maintain a level of decorum at an event. There are all sorts of speech that will get you kicked out of a performance venue if it interferes with the performance. Swearing abusively at an amateur teenage athlete isn't conducive to the values of high school sports. I see no problem in removing an unruly fan from such a venue--I'd be bothered if they DIDN'T kick her out. High school athletes shouldn't have to deal with that shit.
    Meh. Maybe -- if they had a rule that applies to everyone, which the patrons were noticed about. I don't see that what she yelled was so terrible, but no matters.

    Yes, the government can have conduct rules for public spaces, but they must be noticed, in advance, to everyone. And enforced, as to everyone.


  5. #15
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John T Ford View Post
    This story sounds like BS to me.

    The woman was arrested for disorderly conduct.

    Some of these parents take these kids sport way too seriously even coming to blows with other parents/referees, etc.

    It sounds like to me this woman was being disorderly.
    That could be, which is why I said "my comments are based on the facts as reported", remember? Yes, parents and fans at children's sporting events can become so abusive, they should be removed.

    But as reported, it did not sound to me as if this lady had done.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Meh. Maybe -- if they had a rule that applies to everyone, which the patrons were noticed about. I don't see that what she yelled was so terrible, but no matters.

    Yes, the government can have conduct rules for public spaces, but they must be noticed, in advance, to everyone. And enforced, as to everyone.

    But if they are in keeping with local disorderly conduct laws, do patrons really need to be reminded of the law? Isn't the law enforceable even if they aren't directly posted? I mean...we have laws against stealing, but does that mean every business needs to post copies of such laws at the door to see a thief prosecuted?
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Your civil rights have been violated, but that does not make what the cops did to you legal. Unconstitutional acts of the government cannot be legal.

    No, the cops cannot bar you from any public space. Permanently? Hell no. Again -- unconstitutional.

    No, the cops cannot arrest you for cursing, regardless of who you direct that speech towards. If it is not inciting a riot, it's protected free speech.

    There are some archaic laws around the country against using "blue language" in public, but they will no longer sustain a prosecution. Apart from the 1st amendment issues, you cannot be prosecuted for a crime that has not been enforced in over 100 years. It's called Selective Enforcement, and it's an affirmative defense. (Anti-adultery laws are also still on the books in many states, and likewise unenforceable.)

    I don't blame you personally for not enforcing your rights. I come across evidence of public corruption virtually every time I leave the house, and I am not spending my life trying to clean up Cleveland government, either. It is not a one-man job.

    But the lawyer you saw was either stupid or corrupt, not wanting the cops to know he correctly advised anyone of their rights. Him you might consider reporting to the state bar association. Odds are, they won't do anything to him apart from send him a letter, but that'll ruin his morning. Dickhead.

    Lawyers are supposed to be the front line defense for citizens, against runaway government power in this country. I hate when they don't fulfill that duty.
    Well I'm with you in principle. Unfortunately the reality is that these police officers can do these things legally - because they do them every day without consequence and with the full blessing of the legal system and courts.

    The situation you describe in your OP happens frequently all the time - and I suspect this young woman's suit will go nowhere.
    Thanks from Madeline

  8. #18
    Veteran Member DebateDrone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Is it? I think patrons can be required to maintain a level of decorum at an event. There are all sorts of speech that will get you kicked out of a performance venue if it interferes with the performance. Swearing abusively at an amateur teenage athlete isn't conducive to the values of high school sports. I see no problem in removing an unruly fan from such a venue--I'd be bothered if they DIDN'T kick her out. High school athletes shouldn't have to deal with that shit.
    If people are allowed to pray at HS games, then I should be allowed to cus. The state can not make a moral judgement on moral speech at school.

    We have to be consistent. If Prayer is allowed, then any speech should be.

    I actually believe a school has a right to limit speech. I believe when the Supreme Court ruled no right is absolute. No one would say that I have the right to enter into someone's Church and preach my version of the Bible...uninvited.

    But If we claim that it's first amendment 24/4 where ever...when ever, then that has to be for all speech.

    In a Day care, a Church, a hospital or a courtroom.
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  9. #19
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Even professional sporting events have codes of conduct, violation of which can get you tossed out of the venue. A police officer might be called to assist in enacting such a penalty. Here's such a code from a venue near you:

    Cleveland Browns | Fan Code of Conduct
    Yeah, we adhere to that.

    LOL.

    We had a private peewee football league playoff game dissolved when the parents of one team hit the children on the other team, so viciously some had to be taken to the hospital.

    I am aware this is an issue.

    BUT if this justification is not applicable, everything I said in the Op is still correct!

    LOLOL.

  10. #20
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John T Ford View Post
    Because that's a race baiting comment.
    I disagree.

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