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Thread: Fit To Stand Trial In Scotland

  1. #31
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eve1 View Post
    No, I am not. Read the decision and my comments.
    O, you are correct on the law.

    But not every prisoner gets the deluxe due process package. I actually think highly of my county sheriff, whose mainly untrained staff manage a outdated facility so well, very few people die in jail here. That's a tremendous accomplishment, given what he is forced to accomplish, and with so few resources.

    Our juvenile facility, run by the city cops, is a 2 or 3 year old state of the art unmitigated disaster, by comparision.

    And we're light years ahead of Chicago.

  2. #32
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    [N]ot every prisoner gets the deluxe due process package.
    Very true. Often the courts are more interested in "defense counsel" who will process cases quickly rather than someone who will follow the ethics rules and provide diligent and zealous representation. I know someone who lost her job over that (among other, unrelated reasons).
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  3. #33
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Very true. Often the courts are more interested in "defense counsel" who will process cases quickly rather than someone who will follow the ethics rules and provide diligent and zealous representation. I know someone who lost her job over that (among other, unrelated reasons).
    Maybe I am just an overly-sensitive soul, but when I moved here from Tallahassee, I looked at doing juvenile cases.

    For about 15 minutes.

    I would never survive, emotionally, participating in that sausage factory. And the adult system is many times more horrible.

    It's a freak accident if any defendant here gets justice, unless he is newsworthy or rich.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    It is not a stupid standard. It is a legal term of art with a specific meaning that has nothing to do with one's medical condition per se, though one's mental health condition certainly bears on whether the person was insane at the time. A person who was "insane" did not understand the nature of what he or she was doing at the time of committing the act or acts in question, and did not know the difference between right and wrong. Insanity - FindLaw
    a


    In most European legal system the difference between right and wrong is not something to be considered. What is important is the degree of freedom the one perpatring a criminal act has or not. If this person could see that his behavior would possibly lead to break the law, it is a first point, but you need more, which is to know wether or not this person was able to behave according to that, which means that he had the necessary freedom to be considered as being able to choose a behavior not breaking the law......
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  5. #35
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    a


    In most European legal system the difference between right and wrong is not something to be considered. What is important is the degree of freedom the one perpatring a criminal act has or not. If this person could see that his behavior would possibly lead to break the law, it is a first point, but you need more, which is to know wether or not this person was able to behave according to that, which means that he had the necessary freedom to be considered as being able to choose a behavior not breaking the law......
    Overall, European nations seem to rely entirely on rehabilitation as their only goal in applying criminal penalties, including prison. And that approach obviously has benefits. There is no question that brualizing children and adults in the U.S. prison system is a direct, major cause of American violence.


    But......


    I question how long EU nations can sustain this purity of purpose, especially as hideous mob violence and terror attacks continue to rise.

    You are losing your greatest source of internal security -- healthy, prosperous, homogenous populations with almost no urban overpopulation.

    I watched a very interesting documentary on the rise of savage juvenile violent crime in Japan, a phenom that was unheard of before WWII.

    I think it's happening in part because the religious devotion to the emperor, etc. of Shintiism (?) is largely a thing of the past. They are also facing the entirely new problem of elderly people, living alone, unable to rely on family for care.

    Point being, I suppose, that rapid change and an open society carry some heavy costs.
    Last edited by Madeline; 11th December 2017 at 10:04 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Overall, European nations seem to rely entirely on rehabilitation as their only goal in applying criminal penalties, including prison.
    Really? From what I read, French prisons are pretty gruesome.
    And that approach obviously has benefits. There is no question that brualizing children and adults in the U.S. prison system is a direct, major cause of American violence.
    Strange, isn't it, that the idea of rehabilitation in corrections is an AMERICAN idea (inspired by Quakers) that was taken back to Europe by Alexis de Tocqueville. That's what his tour of America that resulted in his book was all about.

    I question how long EU nations can sustain this purity of purpose, especially as hideous mob violence and terror attacks continue to rise.

    You are losing your greatest source of internal security -- healthy, prosperous, homogenous populations with almost no urban overpopulation.
    You're under the impression that violent crime hasn't been an issue in Europe previous to this century? Seriously? How do you think America and Australia got populated?
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  7. #37
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Really? From what I read, French prisons are pretty gruesome. Strange, isn't it, that the idea of rehabilitation in corrections is an AMERICAN idea (inspired by Quakers) that was taken back to Europe by Alexis de Tocqueville. That's what his tour of America that resulted in his book was all about.

    You're under the impression that violent crime hasn't been an issue in Europe previous to this century? Seriously? How do you think America and Australia got populated?
    I was making sweeping generalizations.

    Very sweeping!

    I bow to your more accurate post. Thanks for correcting me!
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  8. #38
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    Just to give you some figures..... In my country we spend as an average about USD 450 a day for each jailed person. In the US you spend 4 time less but you have about 2.3 millions people in prison which is proportionally 7 to 8 time more than in Switzerland and we have a rather low rate of second offence. The difference comes also with the fact that we offer professional training to inmates and follow them when they are set free. General security benefits from that approach. And the question of terrorism is actually something rather marginal and does not influence the way we deal with criminality even if it can make the headline.As a conclusion we spend more per capita but less globally and it is positive for everyone when the way criminality is dealt with mainly through repression in the USA brings a much higher crime rate....
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  9. #39
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    Just to give you some figures..... In my country we spend as an average about USD 450 a day for each jailed person. In the US you spend 4 time less but you have about 2.3 millions people in prison which is proportionally 7 to 8 time more than in Switzerland and we have a rather low rate of second offence. The difference comes also with the fact that we offer professional training to inmates and follow them when they are set free. General security benefits from that approach. And the question of terrorism is actually something rather marginal and does not influence the way we deal with criminality even if it can make the headline.As a conclusion we spend more per capita but less globally and it is positive for everyone when the way criminality is dealt with mainly through repression in the USA brings a much higher crime rate....
    O, I think the Scandanavian countries are best in the world at corrections. I read where Denmark is closing some facilities because the prison population has fallen so low

    American prisons have been perverted to such a degree, they are literally modern-day slave camps. It's horrible.

  10. #40
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    American prisons have been perverted to such a degree, they are literally modern-day slave camps. It's horrible.
    And that is not even the worst of it. I would rather be executed than go to an American prison. (Not that I want to go to any prison in the first place....)
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