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Thread: The Fatal Flaw in the Bakers’ Free Speech Argument

  1. #251
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Did our government ever establish a state religion in our history?
    Clearly, you read none of the cases - and never have.

    Oh, and what Djinn said.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    You would like to bury American history...
    Between Djinn's post and my list of cases, it is you who wishes to not only bury American history, but rewrite it in your own image.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    ... that shows our founding Fathers honoring G-d ...
    Which they did - if at all, not being something Deists do - as individuals. They did not set up the government to do so, and in fact expressly precluded it from doing so. Religion and state are wholly separate entities.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    ... limit free speech ...
    No one is seeking any such thing, as there is no free speech involved in the present case.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    ... free exercise of religion with the FFRF.
    The FFRF does not seek to limit the free exercise of religion. You do not understand the issues, but rather wish to frame everything in terms of your "right" to punish people who do not subscribe to your religious beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    You can call me names, but it won’t stop me from speaking the truth.
    Apparently something is stopping you from "speaking the truth," which you have never done around here.

  2. #252
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Clearly, you read none of the cases - and never have.

    Oh, and what Djinn said.


    Between Djinn's post and my list of cases, it is you who wishes to not only bury American history, but rewrite it in your own image.


    Which they did - if at all, not being something Deists do - as individuals. They did not set up the government to do so, and in fact expressly precluded it from doing so. Religion and state are wholly separate entities.


    No one is seeking any such thing, as there is no free speech involved in the present case.


    The FFRF does not seek to limit the free exercise of religion. You do not understand the issues, but rather wish to frame everything in terms of your "right" to punish people who do not subscribe to your religious beliefs.


    Apparently something is stopping you from "speaking the truth," which you have never done around here.
    Court cases is no evidence of the country establishing a state religion, its just your fears of Christians showing again. 70 percent of the country is Christian, I doubt you can silence them, funny seeing you try though lol

  3. #253
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Court cases is no evidence of the country establishing a state religion, its just your fears of Christians showing again. 70 percent of the country is Christian, I doubt you can silence them, funny seeing you try though lol
    Not all Christians are equal. Two-third of U.S. people who identify as Christians go to church services either rarely or never. Their religion just isn't that important to them.

    Attendance at religious services - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center
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  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Not all Christians are equal. Two-third of U.S. people who identify as Christians go to church services either rarely or never. Their religion just isn't that important to them.

    Attendance at religious services - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center
    I think one can be a spiritual person, yet not be a religious person. From my perspective, religious implies some sort of relationship or attachment to a religion. I consider myself to be a spiritual person, but not religious because I support or attend no organized religious group or entity. Again, from my perspective, organized religion has been one of and continues to be one of the most destructive factors over the course of human history. Moreover, I think the prime directive of most religions is the control of its flock as well as others. I have my beliefs and my relationship with my God and it is personal, I don't need others to instruct me.

    Regarding the 1st amendment, particularly the free exercise of religion, I often wonder what the statement, Congress shall make NO LAW (emphasis added) actually means. Where is the except when-for example when operating a public accommodation.
    Last edited by TheWahoo; 16th April 2018 at 07:40 AM.
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  5. #255
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Court cases is no evidence of the country establishing a state religion.
    Yes, they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    70 percent of the country is Christian...
    Only when you need the numbers to make your (invalid) point. Since more than a few are Democrats/liberals, you would characterize them as "not real Xians." Even most conservatives are not voting to make your brand of religion the official one. Your numbers are smaller than you think. Not that it matters ... you need more numbers than you can get to rewrite the Constitution in your image.

  6. #256
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Not all Christians are equal. Two-third of U.S. people who identify as Christians go to church services either rarely or never. Their religion just isn't that important to them.

    Attendance at religious services - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center
    That doesn't mean they don't believe in God though. Our history shows most founding fathers were Christian, isn't that true?

  7. #257
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Yes, they are.


    Only when you need the numbers to make your (invalid) point. Since more than a few are Democrats/liberals, you would characterize them as "not real Xians." Even most conservatives are not voting to make your brand of religion the official one. Your numbers are smaller than you think. Not that it matters ... you need more numbers than you can get to rewrite the Constitution in your image.
    No its not. Show me where Congress has tried to pass a law making America a Christian nation?

  8. #258
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    That doesn't mean they don't believe in God though. Our history shows most founding fathers were Christian, isn't that true?
    They were Christians, but they were also solidly against the establishment of a national (or state) religion. That's why God's law is not invoked in the United States Constitution, and neither Christ, nor Christianity are mentioned.
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  9. #259
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    No its not. Show me where Congress has tried to pass a law making America a Christian nation?
    I gave you a link showing that at least one state passed a law recognizing Jesus as a messiah.
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  10. #260
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    They were Christians, but they were also solidly against the establishment of a national (or state) religion. That's why God's law is not invoked in the United States Constitution, and neither Christ, nor Christianity are mentioned.
    If a Theocracy would happen it would have been when the Fathers founded the country. There was not all these other religions in those days. The idea of it happening today is a combination of fear and the Minority wanting power

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