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Thread: Who will actually get human re-birth?

  1. #1
    dattaswami

    Who will actually get human re-birth?

    Who will actually get human re-birth?

    Sharma: Who is actually getting the human rebirth? I would like to know
    The actual point that gives the hum rebirth, Swami! Kindly explain
    I may not go to higher or highest levels in the spiritual journey but
    I should have a minimum guarantee of human birth so that at least
    I shall be careful about that point in every human birth, since if
    The human birth is assured, I will slowly follow other spiritual points.


    Swami:
    You have asked a very important question because if you get
    At least the human rebirth you can think of other points in the path
    That facilitates you to reach higher and even highest level slowly.

    If you get a rebirth as an animal or a bird, the spiritual progress is
    Blocked completely since birds and animals cannot analyse knowledge.
    I am giving the straight answer to your question, be ready to receive.
    The only point that can give you the human rebirth to you is
    That you should approach and serve the present human incarnation.
    The intensity in your service will decide the higher and highest levels.
    Gita says “Yanti mat yajinopi mam” which means that if the devotee worships
    The human form, he shall get the human birth once again.
    Gita says that one gets the birth of that form which he likes and worships
    That form as the Lord “Yea yatha mam prapadyante”, it is also said
    “Yet bhavam tat bhavati” which means that whatever you like much
    That you shall obtain, when you like a particular item in the creation
    To the climax, you will treat it as God because you like God also
    To the climax, climax being common this concept is quite logical.

    If one worships God as the inert energy like light or fire, he will be
    The light or fire in the next birth, if one worships God as formless,
    He will be born as the formless space or to say that he will be nothing.
    Gita says “Bhutejyah yanti bhutani” which means that he who worships
    The inert objects shall be born as an inert object like stone.
    In this verse people say that the word Bhuta means ghost.
    That meaning is also acceptable and we can say that he who worships,
    Ghosts shall become the ghost, the general concept is not damaged.
    The general concept is that one becomes that which he likes and worships.
    You cannot deny the meaning of inert element for the word Bhuta.
    The word Pancha Bhuta means the five inert elements, in fact
    In the entire Gita the word Bhuta is used only to mean the inert five elements.
    I am not contradicting your version also as it supports the general concept.
    But you cannot oppose the meaning I have taken for the word Bhuta here,
    Especially when the word is used in my meaning in the entire Gita.
    Even if you say that the word means a living being, no problem then also
    A devotee who worships a plant shall become the plant and a devotee
    Who worships a bird shall become a bird and a devotee who worships
    An animal shall become an animal and he who worships a human form shall
    Become the human being; therefore the concept is very clear in this context.

  2. #2
    Babylon

    Re: Who will actually get human re-birth?

    Quote Originally Posted by dattaswami View Post
    Who will actually get human re-birth?


    Sharma: Who is actually getting the human rebirth? I would like to know
    The actual point that gives the hum rebirth, Swami! Kindly explain
    I may not go to higher or highest levels in the spiritual journey but
    I should have a minimum guarantee of human birth so that at least
    I shall be careful about that point in every human birth, since if
    The human birth is assured, I will slowly follow other spiritual points.

    Swami:You have asked a very important question because if you get
    At least the human rebirth you can think of other points in the path
    That facilitates you to reach higher and even highest level slowly.

    If you get a rebirth as an animal or a bird, the spiritual progress is
    Blocked completely since birds and animals cannot analyse knowledge.
    I am giving the straight answer to your question, be ready to receive.
    The only point that can give you the human rebirth to you is
    That you should approach and serve the present human incarnation.
    The intensity in your service will decide the higher and highest levels.
    Gita says “Yanti mat yajinopi mam” which means that if the devotee worships
    The human form, he shall get the human birth once again.
    Gita says that one gets the birth of that form which he likes and worships
    That form as the Lord “Yea yatha mam prapadyante”, it is also said
    “Yet bhavam tat bhavati” which means that whatever you like much
    That you shall obtain, when you like a particular item in the creation
    To the climax, you will treat it as God because you like God also
    To the climax, climax being common this concept is quite logical.

    If one worships God as the inert energy like light or fire, he will be
    The light or fire in the next birth, if one worships God as formless,
    He will be born as the formless space or to say that he will be nothing.
    Gita says “Bhutejyah yanti bhutani” which means that he who worships
    The inert objects shall be born as an inert object like stone.
    In this verse people say that the word Bhuta means ghost.
    That meaning is also acceptable and we can say that he who worships,
    Ghosts shall become the ghost, the general concept is not damaged.
    The general concept is that one becomes that which he likes and worships.
    You cannot deny the meaning of inert element for the word Bhuta.
    The word Pancha Bhuta means the five inert elements, in fact
    In the entire Gita the word Bhuta is used only to mean the inert five elements.
    I am not contradicting your version also as it supports the general concept.
    But you cannot oppose the meaning I have taken for the word Bhuta here,
    Especially when the word is used in my meaning in the entire Gita.
    Even if you say that the word means a living being, no problem then also
    A devotee who worships a plant shall become the plant and a devotee
    Who worships a bird shall become a bird and a devotee who worships
    An animal shall become an animal and he who worships a human form shall
    Become the human being; therefore the concept is very clear in this context.
    So it's like the Secret, the Law of Attraction.

  3. #3
    Babylon

    Re: Who will actually get human re-birth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon View Post
    So it's like the Secret, the Law of Attraction.
    What? It's not? Is he fake.....Duh....!

  4. #4
    Desidude666

    Re: Who will actually get human re-birth?

    You cannot impose your views on birth/re-birth on anyone without firm evidence to support your hypothesis. By suggesting this, you suggest the existence of a spiritual institution ... organized after life management. How can you expect others to believe this?! What is your source of this?

  5. #5
    dattaswami

    Re: Who will actually get human re-birth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desidude666 View Post
    You cannot impose your views on birth/re-birth on anyone without firm evidence to support your hypothesis. By suggesting this, you suggest the existence of a spiritual institution ... organized after life management. How can you expect others to believe this?! What is your source of this?

    This universe is infinite. I am unable to show the existence of these super worlds to you. I accept my incapability. But you are also incapable to prove directly the non-existence of these super worlds. Have you taken all over the universe and said, " Here ends the universe. Beyond this point there is no universe. This is the compound wall of the space. Your super world does not exist anywhere’’. Therefore, there is equal chance for the existence and non-existence of the super worlds according to the theory of probability.

    Now let us analyse of our cases. Both of us are eating to live. The basic needs are satisfied in the cases of both of us. You have spent extra time also in earning more money, which may give you some problems of health like sugar, B.P etc., due to over enjoying. I have not earned more money and I am healthy due to normal food. None of us will carry the money with us after death. The money given to the children may also be lost in several ways. Therefore, I do not find much difference between us, once the basic needs are satisfied. I am poor because I have spent my extra time in the service of God.

    Suppose after my death, you are correct and there are no super worlds. In such case what I have lost? There is no loss for me. But after your death, suppose I am correct and there are super worlds. You have lost every thing and God will not save you. Thus, even on accepting your argument, based on the equal probability, it is better to serve the Lord by sacrificing the extra time and energy for the Lord after earning the basic needs. You must read the theory of probability, which is perfectly a scientific theory.

  6. #6
    Desidude666

    Re: Who will actually get human re-birth?

    Quote Originally Posted by dattaswami View Post
    This universe is infinite. I am unable to show the existence of these super worlds to you. I accept my incapability. But you are also incapable to prove directly the non-existence of these super worlds. Have you taken all over the universe and said, " Here ends the universe. Beyond this point there is no universe. This is the compound wall of the space. Your super world does not exist anywhere’’. Therefore, there is equal chance for the existence and non-existence of the super worlds according to the theory of probability.

    Now let us analyse of our cases. Both of us are eating to live. The basic needs are satisfied in the cases of both of us. You have spent extra time also in earning more money, which may give you some problems of health like sugar, B.P etc., due to over enjoying. I have not earned more money and I am healthy due to normal food. None of us will carry the money with us after death. The money given to the children may also be lost in several ways. Therefore, I do not find much difference between us, once the basic needs are satisfied. I am poor because I have spent my extra time in the service of God.

    Suppose after my death, you are correct and there are no super worlds. In such case what I have lost? There is no loss for me. But after your death, suppose I am correct and there are super worlds. You have lost every thing and God will not save you. Thus, even on accepting your argument, based on the equal probability, it is better to serve the Lord by sacrificing the extra time and energy for the Lord after earning the basic needs. You must read the theory of probability, which is perfectly a scientific theory.
    Various cultures suggest that your time of passing is what you beget later, for those who believe in reincarnation, this is also the case. I have seen some Nirgun Brahman posters and was rather baffled by some of it. So much institutionalization by a God who does not even possess a body? My issue is not faith or belief, it is rather the opposite, the imposing of what you believe on others. You may convince others, fine, but do not make them worship you.

    I have had these God men before, they were my parent's Guru at one time. But what I've noticed about them is the need to elevate themselves. These people are not different to the pastors of Christian churches who use the philantrophy personally, but in case of Hindus, it's one step further - commanding worship. I know we have a problem with idiocy - but this is blatant stupidity. What and *why* the hell must they be woshipped? On what grounds? If as a Guru, fine - respect and well wishes but *worship*? I understand the Sansrkit term "Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu, Guru Devo Maheswara, Guru Shakshat Param Brahman, Tasmaye Guruye Namah." Some even command their own song for God's sake! This is a blot on our culture and traditions. I've seen these people claiming to be God's avatar and whatever, little do you know, we'd have one claiming to be God's pet cat. My point is that you do not worship mortals. Period. Respect - but *NOT* PRAY.

    Yes, it is a matter of choice, but then if left unchecked you tend to spread it. The spreading of Buddhism is one of the most stupidest religious masquerades I've ever heard off... the founder did not even want it to be a religion in the first place and look at Thailand. Did you know that Sakyamuni did not even allot a successor? And his death is not said to be uneventful - he knew the time of his death.

    The same thing goes with suggestions of religious institutionalization, when I posed that question to you, I expected references from the Vedas or the various purans. Gita has mentioned some aspects in vague details regarding to the after life. There is no 'wrong' way to God, every way is right - all you need are references. However, there is a staple and a foundation to which you live your life, that is either religion or science. For starters, have you heard the myth of a Brahmin who disregarded the Sanatan Dharm, married a prostitute for sense gratification and lived a life of material worship? On his death bed, he utters Narayan's name and he is taken to Vaikunth instead or wherever his karma needs to take him. That's exactly the case, whilst you can preach and exemplify to others how you live your life, when it matters, it will work how it should.

    I am a firm believer of purpose, nothing happens without a purpose. If you are alloted with material responsibility, you fulfill them as well. According to the Gita, only escapists disregard their material duties out of laziness or sheer fear of serving someone else. No lazy bum can become a yogi. You want to serve an all powerful master, and religion offers you a way out justifying your under-performance. My point is that if you are made a janitor, you do your job, clean for society and live collectively - whilst doing equally well for God. Same goes if you are a PM. In the end, don't think that your religious lifestyle will guarantee your security. Gita has explicitely advised us to fulfill our material obligations - disregard all earthly 'gods' and even some demi-Gods to an extent. If God wanted us to escape to oblivion, he would have asked Arjun to quit the battle and become a nomad. Through Vivasvan he spoke to us, through Arjun he spoke to us - it was known that Vyas was documenting it anyways, he was the very person who gave Sanjay divya dhristi to describe the events and losses to his son Dhristrashtra.

    It is also said that even though you are indeed elevated through your 'good deeds' you may simply attain the Chandra Lokas and be destined to be back bound in flesh and blood. Ultimately your thinking is wrong - you are looking to the end line while working with one eye to one possible end result. You need to work without attachment to results and focus on your job - dedicate it to God and work to the best of your abilities. Since you are a Hindu, you know the need to sacrifice. By dedicating your karma to God, you offer Karmic sacrifices instead and hence fulfill the Dev Rihn. According to shastras, you have children to fulfill Pitr Rihn and so forth.

    The material world isn't mithya - it is real and it is also our goal to sustain it, maintain dharma and order. You can't be an escapist - it isn't said so anywhere. Even the greatest rishis such as Vyas, Vishwamitra or even Valmiki have always served the society whilst living as an ascetic. Vyas was the seed for the royal household, Valmiki opened his institution to all forms of people seeking knowledge and Vishwamitra, despite possessing weapons, handed them over to the right candidates. They all provided knowledged and contributed to the society. That is what is expected, to helps sustain our little corner in the creation that is said to be infinite. And if you really know your scripture, you should know that according to Sanatan Dharm, everything that has a beginning has an end, hence the Universe is also limited in that respect.

    Besides, it is also said that you need Divya Dhrishti to see the spiritual - maybe Earth may be populated too... you never know. Perhaps Devas could live on a third dimension? Little do people realise that all religion is nothing but a large Alien story - since most of the divinity does not stay on Earth.

  7. #7
    dattaswami

    Re: Who will actually get human re-birth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desidude666 View Post
    Various cultures suggest that your time of passing is what you beget later, for thos....ou never know. Perhaps Devas could live on a third dimension? Little do people realise that all religion is nothing but a large Alien story - since most of the divinity does not stay on Earth.
    Lord never force anything on any body one should analyse the divine knowledge preached by the Lord in human form and decide by inteligence. Love on Lord should come spontaneously, but for this to happen divine knowledge should be there unless how one will develope love on Him.

    Reference of 'Human Incarnation' in Veda



    Some Scholars argue that there is no referrence of human incarnation in Veda. It is not correct. Veda says “Ajayamaano Bahudha Vijaayate” which means that the Lord, who has no birth is born through several forms. Veda also says “Tadeva Anu Pravisat” which means that Brahman entered the world as an individual soul. Some Scholars have misinterpreted this text also, stating that it means that Brahman entered the creation in the form of a living being and not as human incarnation. Such interpretation is wrong because Veda says that a human being is born from the food derived from the plants (Annat Purushah).

    The plants are modification of the five elements. Brahman cannot be born from the food. Therefore Brahman created the inert universe and the living beings in the beginning itself for the entertainment. On seeing the cinema of creation, Brahman was not satisfied and therefore entered the world as a specified soul, which is the human incarnation. Moreover Gita says that the creation (Prakriti) is of two parts. One part is the inert nature called as Apara. The second part is the life called as Para. Prakriti means creation. The Para Prakriti means the best part of the creation. Brahman enters this world not only for the full entertainment but also likes to give vision, touch, conversation and co-living to the devotees.

    There are several human incarnations, which are given to this world and such human incarnation is called as 'Datta’. The word Datta means given or gifted. Datta is not a specific deity as people misunderstand. Datta means any human incarnation that is gifted to the world to liberate the devotees. These incarnations are of different levels because the devotees are also of different levels. Datta means the system of preachers who come down at different levels, at different places and in different religions for the sake of the human beings, who are also at different places, at different levels and in different religions.

    The main aim of the human incarnation is only to preach the divine special knowledge, which cannot be preached by any individual soul. Such special knowledge is called as ‘Prajnanam’ in Veda. At one place, there will be elementary school, high school, college and University and teachers of different levels are required at one place itself. Such teachers of different levels are required in each place, each language and each religion.

    If the Lord is confined to a particular place or language or generation or religion, He becomes partial. Gita says that the Lord is the divine Father of all the human beings (Aham Bija Pradah Pitaa). An individual soul is the father of a limited family and the Lord is the Father of the entire world.

  8. #8
    Desidude666

    Re: Who will actually get human re-birth?

    Ok, we keep it small, short and sweet. No worship of living men, or their tombs? There are no such systems mentioned anywhere in our literature. We only support avatars which have been clearly mentioned with ideal sources.

    If a wise man does appear, he does not represent or is, even remotely, a physical manifestation of the divine - simple. There is *no* man God.

  9. #9
    dattaswami

    Re: Who will actually get human re-birth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desidude666 View Post
    Ok, we keep it small, short and sweet. No worship of living men, or their tombs? There are no such systems mentioned anywhere in our literature. We only support avatars which have been clearly mentioned with ideal sources.

    If a wise man does appear, he does not represent or is, even remotely, a physical manifestation of the divine - simple. There is *no* man God.
    you must understand the concept of Lord in human form.

    Lord need a medium to talk to us.

    Human incarnations of various types, such as described above, form a complex of various educational institutions. In this complex, there are different levels of institutions such as school, college and university. At each level the human incarnation represents the head of that institution. There is the headmaster for the school, a principal for the college and a chancellor for the university. Various types of assisting staff to assist all the three are also present. The three levels of institutions perform their duties within their limited circles.

    School level: Atheist becomes a believer

    An uneducated person is first admitted into a school. He then goes to a college and finally to a university. The uneducated person cannot enter the university directly. Similarly an atheist should first become a believer of God by seeing divine miracles. Converting atheists into believers is the main purpose of the first type of human incarnation.

    College level: Believer becomes a devotee

    After becoming a believer in God (theist), a person should become a devotee through different types of worship and devotional songs. The second type of human incarnation works for this. The above two types (school and college) of incarnations work for the purification of the mind of the person. Only when the mind is completely freed from jealousy and egoism, is it said to be completely purified. Prayers, worship and traditional practices promoted by the second type of human incarnation, purify the mind. Thus the person becomes eligible for Jnana Yoga or the Knowledge of God. Lord Shankara has said that the traditional practices bring about the purification of mind, which makes one eligible for receiving Jnana Yoga.

    University level: Devotee becomes a Jnani

    At the university level, the devotee becomes a Jnani (possessor of knowledge). Having gained the eligibility to acquire this knowledge, he works to get established in this knowledge, in this step. This third level is the most important level. However if the mind is not completely purified, Jnana Yoga cannot be achieved. Once the person is established in Jnana Yoga, he is liberated. When you have this Jnana Yoga, you will be astonished as said in the Gita (Ascharyavath pasyathi…). The third incarnation reveals the whole true knowledge in order to convert the devotee to a Jnani.

    This third incarnation is called the Pari Poorna Tamavataram. The words ‘Pari’ and ‘Tama’ both indicate the superlative degree. The use of a double superlative degree is to emphasize that there can be no greater Avatara or human incarnation than this. He is God who is fully revealed. He says vehemently that He is God. Lord Krishna is the highest and fullest incarnation (Pari Poorna Tamavataram). Only He can reveal the true knowledge, which can open all the knots of your heart. All your doubts are cleared with this knowledge. Your heart is immersed in the ocean of Bliss. This Avatara reveals Jnana Yoga.

  10. #10
    Desidude666

    Re: Who will actually get human re-birth?

    I doubt so. The all powerful God is said to be within us, in the Gita. He is the Garbodhar Vishnu present within as our conscious - that is what the literature says. Gita explicitly warns us against Godmen and their corruption.

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