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Thread: A question of ethics

  1. #41
    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    So you are suggesting that the Creator of the universe has no more power over it's creation than would a mere human? Rather flies in the face of that whole omnipotence thing, doncha think?
    No, I'm not, because as I've said I dont really believe in any of that omnipotence stuff. The point was that it would be the greatest scientific breakthrough in the history of science to create life out of "non-life". Even if that meant that some of the descendants of that life would kill other descendants. If it would be a monumental achievement for a person that surpasses all others, wouldnt we have to believe that if some supernatural being did it?

    Also, you sort of seem to be basing this around people who believe god individually created each species—one by one—as written in the book of Genesis, even though Genesis left out a few hundred million species of animals and plants and insects and even microbial diseases. What if God just created existence? Since there can be no happiness without sadness, no pleasure without pain, life without death, existence of any of them requires the existence of the opposite.

    Which would be a brilliant observation were the diseases in the OP discriminatory, and only affected murderers, rapists, sociopaths, and criminals. However, since they do not, your "some killing isn't evil" argument is irrelevant.
    The point was that killing isn't necessarily "evil". Perhaps it wasn't quite on point. There have been wars that killed millions of people, and even though I don't think they were pleasant or good, I don't think all the killings were necessarily "evil".

    Do you think the bacteria are evil because they kill people in their selfish pursuit of reproduction?

  2. #42
    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    A question of ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Consider that nature creates for the best possible end to what it creates.

    If God, with his super powers, cannot do better than nature, --- then he should be rejected out of hand as a failed creator.

    Regards
    DL
    That sounds rather circular. What do you mean "nature creates"? It sort of seems like you're having your cake and eating it too here. Do I understand that you don't believe in God the Creator, but you do believe in Nature the Creator?

    Did you just slap a new coat of paint on religion and claim its totally different?

  3. #43
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanStill View Post
    The point was that killing isn't necessarily "evil". Perhaps it wasn't quite on point. There have been wars that killed millions of people, and even though I don't think they were pleasant or good, I don't think all the killings were necessarily "evil".

    Do you think the bacteria are evil because they kill people in their selfish pursuit of reproduction?
    Of course not. bacteria do what they are designed to do. Now, if that design is nothing more than nature occurring in predictable patterns without direction, then there is no evil. However, if someone, or something deliberately designed those bacteria to do what they do, then the evil does not belong to the bacteria, but to the designer.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanStill View Post
    Irrelevant. Religion accepts religion and it kills millions upon millions more. Also, if by communism you mean "Stalinist Russia" then that communism was itself a religion, so fail again.
    I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I've seen religion help some people cope, but I'm really not buying into any of the big religions.

  5. #45
    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    A question of ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Of course not. bacteria do what they are designed to do. Now, if that design is nothing more than nature occurring in predictable patterns without direction, then there is no evil. However, if someone, or something deliberately designed those bacteria to do what they do, then the evil does not belong to the bacteria, but to the designer.
    Ok, so what about the first bit of my reply? I don't think I disagree with what you've said here, but you seem content to pick the low hanging fruit. What about the rest?

  6. #46
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanStill View Post
    Ok, so what about the first bit of my reply? I don't think I disagree with what you've said here, but you seem content to pick the low hanging fruit. What about the rest?
    If you're referring to what I think you are, no, I don't agree. I mean, yeah, I am picking the "low hanging fruit" but that is because, theists want to ignore the most basic nature of the God they have created. They want to credit this allegedly omnipotent being for every beneficial thing that happens in this world, but absolve it of every negative. They either blame man, or an invented "devil" or want to pretend that we are just incapable of comprehending the "bigger picture", and so we don't understand the "greater good" in his "plan".

    So, the only way to expose the flaws in their myths is to present the most basic principles of ethics, and then compare them with what their God has, according to their myths, done. Hence, tho OP.

    Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

  7. #47
    Junior Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanStill View Post
    That sounds rather circular. What do you mean "nature creates"? It sort of seems like you're having your cake and eating it too here. Do I understand that you don't believe in God the Creator, but you do believe in Nature the Creator?

    Did you just slap a new coat of paint on religion and claim its totally different?
    No and neither do I think what I put was circular reasoning at all.

    I like to use the term evolving perfection for nature. Otherwise, a perfect God or nature becomes a stagnant pool of information and our souls and consciousness as a part of that perfection would be useless to the universe.

    Evolving, the perfection of whatever God and nature was, to whatever God and nature will be, means we have to think this way, unless you see God as somehow losing his initial perfection. This is not allowed in a perfect God’s or natures repertoire.

    When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle and pure logic.

    What do you think?

    Candide.
    "It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmc72fCJivA

    This is done by nature and not a God but would be a requirement of a God if he were real.

    Regards
    DL

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Question 1:

    I go into a lab, create a unicellular eukaryotic organism that will kill millions. I infect flying insects to serve as the delivery system.

    If I release it, am I evil?
    Mr. Czernobog,

    You were evil before you entered the lab...

  9. #49
    Established Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Of course not. bacteria do what they are designed to do. Now, if that design is nothing more than nature occurring in predictable patterns without direction, then there is no evil. However, if someone, or something deliberately designed those bacteria to do what they do, then the evil does not belong to the bacteria, but to the designer.
    So does that mean yo think if there is NO deliberate design behind that bacteria, than the evil belongs to the bacteria ?

  10. #50
    Established Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Sooo..."it's not illegal when the president does it,"? Really?!?! That self-justifying logic didn't work for Nixon, why should it work for God?
    If you were to assign to the belief of God existing, as an almighty power, presence and conscience.. How could you then at the same time compare him, and what he designs / creates and rules with experiences that some of his made up creations have experienced during the life the "HE gave them ?

    If he's the almighty, he can make up any rule and self-justifying logic as he so pleases. He would n't have to report or justify any thing to anyone but himself anyways.

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