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Thread: Why should Atheists give a shit about Theists?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humorme View Post
    I realize you aimed that post at me, but I agree with you. I do not belong to the MSM version of Christianity. The religion never changed; the leaders wanting to appeal to the masses changed the message.
    So you don't believe in lending money at interest?

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    Freedom of religion is not possible without freedom from religion. All Americans are free from a state-sponsored religion.

    Name one atheist who wishes to outlaw Christianity. Not one of them has attempted to get that abstract noun removed from the English dictionary, and no atheist has ever prevented Christians' free religious expression in the private sector.



    It wasn't founded in the least on Christian principles. Technically, the first inhabitants of America were the Native Americans, and they didn't find Christianity until the Pilgrims met them, and then the Christian statists threw them in boarding schools and forced them to convert.

    The U.S. Constitution and the Holy Bible are antipodal. The latter says you must worship no God other than Yahweh, and the former says you can worship any God you wish or no God at all.

    The founders of America were anti-Christian Freemasons. George Washington's and Thomas Jefferson's letters expressed disdain for the religion. 18th Century Freemason publications list Franklin and Jefferson as their members, and Washington D.C. is filled with Masonic symbols, not Christian ones. Watch the documentary, Secret Mysteries of America's Beginnings.
    I'm well aware of your arguments, but you've failed to acknowledge when your arguments are being dismantled with facts. Yeah, there were Freemasons involved in America; however, there even more people that were NOT anti-Christian. Your modern left wing name calling is no deterrent to our history.

    The first Charter of Virginia, a document from King James I of England to the Virginia Company assigning land rights to colonists for the stated purpose of propagating the Christian religion (to Sir Walter Raleigh) in 1584 read as follows:

    "We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet Government."

    The Second Charter of Virginia (1609) has this:

    "And forasmuch as it shalbe necessarie for all such our lovinge subjects as shall inhabitt within the said precincts of Virginia aforesaid to determine to live togither in the feare and true woorshipp of Almightie God, Christian peace and civill quietnes, each with other, whereby everie one maie with more safety, pleasure and profitt enjoye that where unto they shall attaine with great paine and perill, wee, for us, oure heires and successors, are likewise pleased and contented and by theis presents doe give and graunte unto the said Tresorer and Companie and their successors and to such governors, officers and ministers as shalbe, by oure said Councell, constituted and appointed, accordinge to the natures and lymitts of their offices and places respectively, that they shall and maie from time to time for ever hereafter, within the said precincts of Virginia or in the waie by the seas thither and from thence, have full and absolute power and aucthority to correct, punishe, pardon, governe and rule all such the subjects of us, oure heires and successors as shall from time to time adventure themselves in anie voiadge thither or that shall at anie tyme hereafter inhabitt in the precincts and territorie of the said Colonie as aforesaid, accordinge to such order, ordinaunces, constitution, directions and instruccions as by oure said Counsell, as aforesaid, shalbe established; and in defect thereof, in case of necessitie according to the good discretions of the said governours and officers respectively, aswell in cases capitall and criminall as civill, both marine and other, so alwaies as the said statuts, ordinannces and proceedinges as neere as convenientlie maie be, be agreable to the lawes, statutes, government and pollicie of this oure realme of England."

    The Second Virginia Charter 1609 < 1600-1650 < Documents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

    The Third Charter of Virginia (1611 - 1612) has this:

    "JAMES, by the Grace of God, King of England;, Scotland, France, and Ireland;, Defender of the Faith; To all to whom these Presents shall come, Greeting. WHEREAS at the humble Suit of divers and sundry our loving Subjects, as well Adventurers as Planters of the first Colony in Virginia, and for the Propagation of Christian Religion, and Reclaiming of People barbarous, to Civility and Humanity, We have, by our Letters-Patents, bearing Date at Westminster, the three-and-twentieth Day of May, in the seventh Year of our Reign of England, France, and Ireland, and the two-and-fortieth of Scotland, GIVEN and GRANTED unto them that they and all such and so many of our loving Subjects as should from time to time, for ever after, be joined with them as Planters or Adventurers in the said Plantation, and their Successors, for ever, should be one Body politick, incorporated by the Name of The Treasurer and Company of Adventurers and; Planters of the city of London for the first Colony in Virginia..."

    The Avalon Project : The Third Charter of Virginia; March 12, 1611

    MichaelJ's words are proof within themselves that atheists DO want to outlaw Christianity. They honestly believe that they have a monopoly on what is and is not relevant in understanding America's Christian history and its context. Even when their interpretations are destroyed, they will seek to change the issues. I'm starting at the beginning of our Christian foundations and WILL address their deflections, side issues, myths and half truths. We just need the whole picture, not a piece here or there.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    Freedom of religion is not possible without freedom from religion. All Americans are free from a state-sponsored religion.

    Name one atheist who wishes to outlaw Christianity. Not one of them has attempted to get that abstract noun removed from the English dictionary, and no atheist has ever prevented Christians' free religious expression in the private sector.



    It wasn't founded in the least on Christian principles. Technically, the first inhabitants of America were the Native Americans, and they didn't find Christianity until the Pilgrims met them, and then the Christian statists threw them in boarding schools and forced them to convert.

    The U.S. Constitution and the Holy Bible are antipodal. The latter says you must worship no God other than Yahweh, and the former says you can worship any God you wish or no God at all.

    The founders of America were anti-Christian Freemasons. George Washington's and Thomas Jefferson's letters expressed disdain for the religion. 18th Century Freemason publications list Franklin and Jefferson as their members, and Washington D.C. is filled with Masonic symbols, not Christian ones. Watch the documentary, Secret Mysteries of America's Beginnings.
    I don't think it's fair to describe our Founders as "anti-Christian." One branch of Freemasonry (Scottish Rite, I think) requires a Christian confession of faith. It's true that the religious character of our country does not descend from the colonial period but from the Early Republic, when the "Second Great Awakening" took place. The necessity of religious belief for full cultural participation dates from that period, not from the time of our independence.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humorme View Post
    I'm well aware of your arguments, but you've failed to acknowledge when your arguments are being dismantled with facts. Yeah, there were Freemasons involved in America; however, there even more people that were NOT anti-Christian. Your modern left wing name calling is no deterrent to our history.

    The first Charter of Virginia, a document from King James I of England to the Virginia Company assigning land rights to colonists for the stated purpose of propagating the Christian religion (to Sir Walter Raleigh) in 1584 read as follows:

    "We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet Government."

    The Second Charter of Virginia (1609) has this:

    "And forasmuch as it shalbe necessarie for all such our lovinge subjects as shall inhabitt within the said precincts of Virginia aforesaid to determine to live togither in the feare and true woorshipp of Almightie God, Christian peace and civill quietnes, each with other, whereby everie one maie with more safety, pleasure and profitt enjoye that where unto they shall attaine with great paine and perill, wee, for us, oure heires and successors, are likewise pleased and contented and by theis presents doe give and graunte unto the said Tresorer and Companie and their successors and to such governors, officers and ministers as shalbe, by oure said Councell, constituted and appointed, accordinge to the natures and lymitts of their offices and places respectively, that they shall and maie from time to time for ever hereafter, within the said precincts of Virginia or in the waie by the seas thither and from thence, have full and absolute power and aucthority to correct, punishe, pardon, governe and rule all such the subjects of us, oure heires and successors as shall from time to time adventure themselves in anie voiadge thither or that shall at anie tyme hereafter inhabitt in the precincts and territorie of the said Colonie as aforesaid, accordinge to such order, ordinaunces, constitution, directions and instruccions as by oure said Counsell, as aforesaid, shalbe established; and in defect thereof, in case of necessitie according to the good discretions of the said governours and officers respectively, aswell in cases capitall and criminall as civill, both marine and other, so alwaies as the said statuts, ordinannces and proceedinges as neere as convenientlie maie be, be agreable to the lawes, statutes, government and pollicie of this oure realme of England."

    The Second Virginia Charter 1609 < 1600-1650 < Documents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

    The Third Charter of Virginia (1611 - 1612) has this:

    "JAMES, by the Grace of God, King of England;, Scotland, France, and Ireland;, Defender of the Faith; To all to whom these Presents shall come, Greeting. WHEREAS at the humble Suit of divers and sundry our loving Subjects, as well Adventurers as Planters of the first Colony in Virginia, and for the Propagation of Christian Religion, and Reclaiming of People barbarous, to Civility and Humanity, We have, by our Letters-Patents, bearing Date at Westminster, the three-and-twentieth Day of May, in the seventh Year of our Reign of England, France, and Ireland, and the two-and-fortieth of Scotland, GIVEN and GRANTED unto them that they and all such and so many of our loving Subjects as should from time to time, for ever after, be joined with them as Planters or Adventurers in the said Plantation, and their Successors, for ever, should be one Body politick, incorporated by the Name of The Treasurer and Company of Adventurers and; Planters of the city of London for the first Colony in Virginia..."

    The Avalon Project : The Third Charter of Virginia; March 12, 1611

    MichaelJ's words are proof within themselves that atheists DO want to outlaw Christianity. They honestly believe that they have a monopoly on what is and is not relevant in understanding America's Christian history and its context. Even when their interpretations are destroyed, they will seek to change the issues. I'm starting at the beginning of our Christian foundations and WILL address their deflections, side issues, myths and half truths. We just need the whole picture, not a piece here or there.
    Do you think it's a bit dishonest to quote documents written 180 years before the Constitution when referring to the "religious foundation" of the country? Back then, there was not only no United States, but there was no conversation about democratically elected government at all. There was no idea of a republic. The Enlightenment hadn't happened yet. You might as well refer back to Columbus' enlslavement of the Arawaks to mine for gold as some kind of "philosophical foundation of the country". After all, we just need the whole picture, not a piece here or there.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanStill View Post
    Do you think it's a bit dishonest to quote documents written 180 years before the Constitution when referring to the "religious foundation" of the country? Back then, there was not only no United States, but there was no conversation about democratically elected government at all. There was no idea of a republic. The Enlightenment hadn't happened yet. You might as well refer back to Columbus' enlslavement of the Arawaks to mine for gold as some kind of "philosophical foundation of the country". After all, we just need the whole picture, not a piece here or there.
    The other problem with this line of argument is that while the document mentions "Christian religion," it didn't really mean that. It didn't mean Catholics. It didn't mean Dissenters. The "Christian religion" the king refers to is the branch of which he was the head. Other colonies were established on entirely different bases--New York was always a trading colony; it eschewed religion as a basis. Maryland was a Catholic colony, mostly established so the Brits could get rid of their Catholics. Ditto for Pennsylvania, which was a means of ridding the Kingdom of Quakers.

    BTW, what happened to that original Virginia colony? Did it continue or did it have to be re-established later?
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    So you don't believe in lending money at interest?
    The Bible has laws against usury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StanStill View Post
    Do you think it's a bit dishonest to quote documents written 180 years before the Constitution when referring to the "religious foundation" of the country? Back then, there was not only no United States, but there was no conversation about democratically elected government at all. There was no idea of a republic. The Enlightenment hadn't happened yet. You might as well refer back to Columbus' enlslavement of the Arawaks to mine for gold as some kind of "philosophical foundation of the country". After all, we just need the whole picture, not a piece here or there.
    I find it is dishonest to ignore the totality of our history. Generally, when we begin with the first governing document of the Plymouth Colony, we get a sense of the history of our ancestors:

    "In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.

    Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia
    " (Mayflower Compact 11 Nov. 1620 - modern version)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower_Compact

    Before our country could have a "founding," it had to have a history leading up to that founding. What you want to argue is to try and understand the automobile from Henry Ford, forward, leaving out the history prior to Ford in understanding the automobile. Nice try, but no cigar.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humorme View Post
    I find it is dishonest to ignore the totality of our history. Generally, when we begin with the first governing document of the Plymouth Colony, we get a sense of the history of our ancestors:

    "In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.

    Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia
    " (Mayflower Compact 11 Nov. 1620 - modern version)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower_Compact

    Before our country could have a "founding," it had to have a history leading up to that founding. What you want to argue is to try and understand the automobile from Henry Ford, forward, leaving out the history prior to Ford in understanding the automobile. Nice try, but no cigar.
    This is nonsense, since everything has a history, and that history has a history, and so on and so on until you find someone who says what you want. The problem is that, by your logic this country was founded on a belief in the Divine Right of Kings, which was accepted political philosophy at the time those documents were written.

    Why stop with Virginia? Why not go to the Magna Carta, the Law of the Twelve Tables, even the Code of Hammurabi?
    Last edited by StanStill; 27th December 2016 at 10:53 AM.
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    It would take many many paragraphs to prove the Christian beliefs of the first settlers and that they were here to propagate the Christian religion. I'll list a few things you can look up and see that they are consistent with my previous posts. I'll do a half dozen so that, if you look them up, you will not want to argue that my previous posts were not reflective of all the colonies. Each of these listed will prove our Christian heritage:

    * Sir Robert Heath's Patent 30 Oct 1629


    * The Charter of Maryland 1632:

    "Provided always, that no Interpretation thereof be made, whereby God's holy and true Christian Religion, or the Allegiance due to Us, our Heirs and Successors, may in any wise suffer by Change, Prejudice, or Diminution; although express Mention be not made in these Presents of the true- yearly Value or Certainty of the Premises, or of any Part thereof; or of other Gifts and Grants made by Us, our Heirs and Successors, unto the said now Lord Baltimore, or any Statute, Act, Ordinance, Provision, Proclamation or Restraint, heretofore had, made, published, ordained or provided, or any other Thing, Cause, or Matter whatsoever, to the contrary thereof in any wise notwithstanding."

    The Avalon Project : The Charter of Maryland : 1632

    Didn't want you to think that this list is fluff. The wording is in all the listed documents

    * Grant of the Province of New Hampshire to Mr. Mason - 22 April 1635

    * Fundamental Orders of Connecticut 1638 - 1639

    * Agreement of the Settlers at Exeter in New Hampshire - 1639

    * Fundamental Agreement of the Colony of New Haven 4 June 1639

    I can cite many more to make the point, but I digress. We need to move further into history in order to understand where we are today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humorme View Post
    The Bible has laws against usury.
    That's not what I asked. Do you think usury is a sin? Do you have a savings account by which a bank uses your money to lend to others at a profit--sharing some of the profit with you? Do you have a mortgage? Do you use credit cards--and do you ever keep a balance? All of these things are "usury" but modern economies dating back to the Renaissance couldn't prosper without it. In fact, the rise of Europe and Christendom and the decline of the Islamic world date from the popularization of banking among Christians while Muslims maintained their strict opposition to lending.

    So you really haven't answered my question.

    Here's another: Do you seek out witches in order to kill them? That was practically the central mission of Christians in the 12th and 13th centuries. Yet we hear almost nothing about witches today, and we would punish someone for killing a witch, no?

    I suspect that if you traveled back in time just a few hundred years, you'd find Christianity as it was actually practiced to be unrecognizable. You might even find it unrecognizable if you simply traveled to Africa today, where exorcisms are a regular part of most church services.
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