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Thread: Why should Atheists give a shit about Theists?

  1. #1
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Why should Atheists give a shit about Theists?

    It all comes down to politics. Were politics not infused with religious ideology, I would not give so much as a single shit what any individual's personal theology was. We could live, and let live. I like blue, you like red, mix nox.

    However, when governments create, and are encouraged to create, laws that incorporate the religious views of one group of citizens into the enforced policies that affect the entire population, then it becomes a concern for me, and other atheists. Now, your beliefs affect me. Government creates a problem when it imposes, through enforced laws, your religious positions on me. I'm certain that Christian, Muslim, or other theists would very much understand this position, were they to suddenly find themselves in the minority in their home country, and were suddenly forced, by virtue of government laws, to behave in accordance with a religion to which they did not ascribe.

    The United States, in spite of the First Amendment designed to separate Church and state, is a highly religious country, ruled by increasingly aggressive religious political leaders. The globe is littered with examples of failed attempts to incorporate religion with governance. My concern is that one day America might be counted among them.

    It is for this reason that, as an atheist, the beliefs, and actions of theists concern me.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Snikitz's Avatar
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    What exact Christian law is being "forced" on you?

    I view most atheists in the same light that I do racists. I find them intolerant, ignorant bigots. If it were legal, I would never, ever hire an atheist. To be an atheist is to express a level of immoralityand a lack of personal integrity that I simply can not accept.

    That is called an "oppinion." You are welcome to yours.

    But I fully support these weirdos and freaks right to BE who they are irrelevant of anything I may think of their vile character. If these bigots want to have a demonstration, I think they should be able to. If these moral degenerates want to put up billboards - they should be able too.

    Simply seeing or hearing something we disagree with does not mean that anything has been forced onto us.

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snikitz View Post
    What exact Christian law is being "forced" on you?
    Prostitution bans, gambling bans, abortion bans, The Blue Laws in Alabama, Indiana, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, and West Virginia...

    Shall I go on?
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    A few questions and comments:

    #1. I too, think women ought to be able to sell their cooch. (It's theirs, after all). BUT, we do need some regulation of it, don't you think?
    #2. Would you be cool with some Hookers turning tricks on your corner?
    #3. Would you like for your children to watch the "business transaction?" The Deed, itself? (HEY, that's better than the movies they show at school, no?)
    #4. Do you think there should be any limits on prostitution?
    #5. You won't see an "abortion ban."
    #6. YOU MAY see, however, a situation, where the taxpayers are not expected to fund them.
    #7. You MAY, also, see some specific limitations, on things such as "late term abortions," or, miors recieving abortions without parental consent.
    #8. Should the father/sperm donor have ANY say so, whatsoever, or.....does HE NOT have a "choice?"
    #9. Do you gamble, much? (I ask, because, you have to be a pretty heavy gambler, if you can't do so, on the "down low..."
    #10. "Blue Laws" tend to be from the very communities they cover. Do you feel that you should have the right to tell people across the continent, living in towns, you will likely never visit, how they should live their lives, and which laws regarding business hours, they should maintain?
    #11. Should taxpayers be expected to take care of people, who lose all their money, gambling?
    #12, Should taxpayers be expected to pay for treatment of any STD's picked up by Hookers, in their line of work?



    As for these being "forced" upon you, I am going to "force" some reality on you:

    --You have the right to have an abortion.

    --You can gamble with your buddies, in private. (Sure, it's not Vegas, but, you can engage in such, if you like.) IF you wish for more methods of betting your money away, I can see your point, as most states do have some limitations on gambling. Some of them NOT in the "Bible Belt."

    --I can understand your angst about "Blue Laws," but honest....they aren't that difficult to work around. In my state, there are NO liquor or wine sales on Sunday. While that can be quite tough on alcoholics, and bums who work JUST enough to go buy a bottle of Thunderbird, I figured out that you can purchase your booze ahead of time. Like, say on Saturday night. I am pretty smart, though. I would point out that the majority of these laws are supported by the community that they cover. Now, I can understand, if you came to my city, and got miffed because you couldn't buy a bottle of booze on Sunday. BUT.....would your state recognize my "right to carry" permit? I mean...if these Blue Laws are so bad, what about the gun laws in, say, Chicago? Shouldn't that city alter it's laws to suit people in other parts of the nation? (That is only fair, if you expect the same....)

    --Sorry but buying pussy is pretty much illegal in most of the nation. Not so certain that is due to CHRISTIAN influence, or, the concerns for public health. Maybe a bit of both. I would point out, however, that even NON-Christian countries often limit, or outlaw prostitution.

    I want you to go on, as I see a lot of hyperventilating and irrational angst in your post, but.....I see NO "Rights" that you will be losing. Just things that you want, but are not allowed to have.....so, you blame Christians and, the Christian faith....

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    A few questions and comments:

    #1. I too, think women ought to be able to sell their cooch. (It's theirs, after all). BUT, we do need some regulation of it, don't you think?
    I don't have a problem with regulation; I have a problem with criminalisation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    #2. Would you be cool with some Hookers turning tricks on your corner?
    Not particularly. Then again, I would prefer not to have a plastics factory running at the corner, either. It's all about zoning. I would prefer not to have most businesses operating in a residential area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    #3. Would you like for your children to watch the "business transaction?" The Deed, itself? (HEY, that's better than the movies they show at school, no?)
    Again, depending on the age of the "children" to which you are referring, not particularly. Then gain, I would prefer them not to watch porn, even though I don't want it criminalised. Nor would I want them watching the employees of a slaughterhouse doing what they do. Simply because a profession should not be criminalised, does not make it necessarily proper viewing entertainment for children.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    #4. Do you think there should be any limits on prostitution?
    Refer to my response to point #1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    #5. You won't see an "abortion ban."
    #6. YOU MAY see, however, a situation, where the taxpayers are not expected to fund them.
    #7. You MAY, also, see some specific limitations, on things such as "late term abortions," or, miors recieving abortions without parental consent.
    I would direct you to Ohio's new law. It seems to have a rather broad interpretation of "late term". I would also direct you to President-Elect Trump's continued promise to only propose Justices that promote overturning Roe v Wade to the Supreme Court. I wouldn't be so quick to guarantee that abortions will never be banned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    #8. Should the father/sperm donor have ANY say so, whatsoever, or.....does HE NOT have a "choice?"
    I would submit that would depend on your perception of "say so". Should a man be able to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term against her will, or dictate that she have an abortion she doesn't want? Not even a little bit. Now, a woman choosing to not have an abortion, when the man wants nothing to do with fatherhood is easy. a man be allowed to absolve himself of any financial responsibility for a pregnancy he doesn't want. She wants an abortion, and he wants the kid? Well, that's a little tougher. Unfortunately, since she is the human incubator, then when it comes to who's desires matter more, I'm afraid I have to fall on the side of the women, until we can figure out a way to allow men to transfer a pregnancy to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    #9. Do you gamble, much? (I ask, because, you have to be a pretty heavy gambler, if you can't do so, on the "down low..."
    I don't. It's not that I have anything against gambling; we just don't have a great deal of disposable income, and there are always better things to spend the money on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    #10. "Blue Laws" tend to be from the very communities they cover. Do you feel that you should have the right to tell people across the continent, living in towns, you will likely never visit, how they should live their lives, and which laws regarding business hours, they should maintain?
    You're question presumes that everyone in these communities agree with the laws. I do not agree with the tyranny of the masses on any scale, when it comes to the right to make individual decisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    #11. Should taxpayers be expected to take care of people, who lose all their money, gambling?
    #12, Should taxpayers be expected to pay for treatment of any STD's picked up by Hookers, in their line of work?
    Did I suggest they should?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    As for these being "forced" upon you, I am going to "force" some reality on you:

    --You have the right to have an abortion.
    Theists have been trying to find new ways to ban abortions, ever since Roe v Wade shut them down, and we are always just one Supreme Court ruling away from Roe v Wade going away. You'll forgive me if I continue to be vigilant of the Theists' attempts to reassert their control over this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    --You can gamble with your buddies, in private. (Sure, it's not Vegas, but, you can engage in such, if you like.) IF you wish for more methods of betting your money away, I can see your point, as most states do have some limitations on gambling. Some of them NOT in the "Bible Belt."
    Actually, in most places, you can't. There have been many "private" gambling games that have been broken up, and the hosts arrested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    --I can understand your angst about "Blue Laws," but honest....they aren't that difficult to work around. In my state, there are NO liquor or wine sales on Sunday. While that can be quite tough on alcoholics, and bums who work JUST enough to go buy a bottle of Thunderbird, I figured out that you can purchase your booze ahead of time. Like, say on Saturday night. I am pretty smart, though. I would point out that the majority of these laws are supported by the community that they cover. Now, I can understand, if you came to my city, and got miffed because you couldn't buy a bottle of booze on Sunday. BUT.....would your state recognize my "right to carry" permit? I mean...if these Blue Laws are so bad, what about the gun laws in, say, Chicago? Shouldn't that city alter it's laws to suit people in other parts of the nation? (That is only fair, if you expect the same....)
    So...so long as the intrusion into your personal life, and choices isn't too uncomfortable, you should just accept it? Huh. I wonder if the theists would feel that way if it was their personal choices that were being intruded on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    --Sorry but buying pussy is pretty much illegal in most of the nation. Not so certain that is due to CHRISTIAN influence, or, the concerns for public health. Maybe a bit of both. I would point out, however, that even NON-Christian countries often limit, or outlaw prostitution.
    I find it interesting that when I say theists, you somehow hear Christian. I would, however, disagree with you that the influence is religiopus. Any health concerns can be rather easily regulated, just as they are in Nevada, or, on a larger scale, the Netherlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
    I want you to go on, as I see a lot of hyperventilating and irrational angst in your post, but.....I see NO "Rights" that you will be losing. Just things that you want, but are not allowed to have.....so, you blame Christians and, the Christian faith....
    Again, I don't believe that I said anything about "Christians"; I said theists.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 14th December 2016 at 01:08 PM.
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    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Had no idea blue laws existed anywhere else but New England. We are the home of the blue laws...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snikitz View Post
    What exact Christian law is being "forced" on you?

    I view most atheists in the same light that I do racists. I find them intolerant, ignorant bigots. If it were legal, I would never, ever hire an atheist. To be an atheist is to express a level of immoralityand a lack of personal integrity that I simply can not accept.

    That is called an "oppinion." You are welcome to yours.

    But I fully support these weirdos and freaks right to BE who they are irrelevant of anything I may think of their vile character. If these bigots want to have a demonstration, I think they should be able to. If these moral degenerates want to put up billboards - they should be able too.

    Simply seeing or hearing something we disagree with does not mean that anything has been forced onto us.
    While I agree with the sentiment, I don't know any longer. Christians have fought hard for religious Liberty. When minority religions and atheists get any degree of power, their objectives change so as to accuse those of living their lives of "forcing" their lifestyle on people.

    If every mention of a God offends the atheist, then they can better claim that America is an atheist nation. They are no different than the Muslim. We invite them to become part of the American culture and some get so whizzed off that they go on terrorist rampages that end the lives of Americans on a wholesale basis.

    Today, the voice of the atheist is all verbal and propaganda on the Internet along with a takeover of the news and entertainment media. They want to silence any mention of God any where, any time and under any conditions. They cannot face the truth, so they choose to try and silence it.

    When Thomas Jefferson penned the words to the Declaration of Independence, it proclaimed that our unalienable Rights came from a Creator (a God, whomever you deem that to be.) According to Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence is the "fundamental charter of the Rights of man." That is a foundational principle upon which this nation was founded.

    In the past I have proudly stood up for anyone and everyone that needed a voice. My personal commitment has been that I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'd fight to the death for your Right to say it. Atheists make no such commitment. They mistake kindness for weakness and they cannot afford Christians to have the Freedom of Religion. Any mention; any nuance; anything from our culture that is indicative our of our culture and our past threatens those people.

    It's ironic. The commitment to protect their Right to speak openly has only resulted in their trying to silence the very people that have been working to protect them. I don't know that it has been a very productive policy.

  8. #8
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Why should Atheists give a shit about Theists?
    On no special reason because atheists don't need reasons.

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 26th December 2016 at 08:08 AM.

  9. #9
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    ... Again, I don't believe that I said anything about "Christians"; I said theists.
    Theists are not existing. We are Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindu or Hindi. We are also Shamans, Buddhists and so on - although Buddhists for example don't have to believe in [a] god they are also not atheists, because "atheist" means not only not to believe in god - it means also everyone, who has any form of a spiritual belief, is an a-atheist = theist. The word theist finds its justification only in the artificial antifactor of an atheistic thought. They like to have enemies. There's nothing real in this thought. Indeed we believers in spirituality are not the antifactor of atheists. For example: Not always every Christian believes every second of his life in god. This doesn't mean such a person is not a Christian any longer.



    Yes. This choir exists since 800 years.

    PS: If you did not understand, what i said here, then take it easy. I said somehow "Why should any a-atheist give a shit about atheists?" But I did not like to use the word "shit" and I filled this thought with some reasons.
    Last edited by zaangalewa; 26th December 2016 at 08:59 AM.

  10. #10
    Burn it down Macduff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Prostitution bans, gambling bans, abortion bans, The Blue Laws in Alabama, Indiana, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, and West Virginia...

    Shall I go on?
    Prostitution is illegal is because it exploits and victimizes women. Real life is not like the movie Pretty Woman.

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