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Thread: Wouldn't Free Will mean...we humans are more poweful than God?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Okay, but why? Why would God DESIGN us to be violent, etc. And then not interfere?

    Are we just ants in an ant farm to him?
    Actually, no. We were 'designed' to be good. In genesis, creation was always followed by "...it is good".

    If obedience to law was the point, then we could just as easily have been created as inanimate objects, no free will and would obey the laws of nature to the letter -- no exceptions. Inanimate objects however, can not know itself, others and the creator himself -- hence incapable of accepting and offering love. Only with free will can one accept and offer love.

    As I have often said, evil has no independent existence. It is a corrupted love.

  2. #12
    Veteran Member TNVolunteer73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Apologists tell us "It's your choice of Heaven or Hell" ...really contradictory ones even discredit the idea that "God created Hell"...it's all "your own making".

    So as far as eschatology, if WE are totally in control of our after-life....God didn't create Hell and didn't create even the "process" of how the unsaved go to Hell...

    it's ALL up to our "Free Will"....

    then, on atleast a personal scale, WE are more powerful than God.


    UNLESS one wants to argue that God has the power to save us from our own "choice" to "choose Hell" and can interfere with that after we die?

    Which of course would negate the "reason" for Free Will ....wouldn't it?


    So either there is no Free Will, due to God being able to interfere after we die and move us to Heaven even though we didn't "chose" that.

    or God is POWERLESS in our eschatological outcomes, and thus not Omnipotent.


    Wait..."He CHOOSES not to save you from Hell...Free Will lasts even after death". Really?

    So he PROACTIVELY allows us to suffer for all eternity...just to maintain a "Rule" that He made up???

    For what purpose? To "teach us a lesson"....a lesson from which nothing can be learned, since it's already "too late"?



    To "maintain the Rules"....again, for what purpose? So the people who "chose" to be saved don't feel "cheated"? Are they really that PETTY that they demand "strict adherence to the Rules" or they get upset?

    or is GOD that petty?

    So there are your options (no doubt to be re-phrased by Apologists)-

    1. Free Will doesn't exist..and the Predestination folks are right and no matter what you do, you're going to be saved because God decided that at the beginning of time?

    2. God is helpless.

    3. God is an arbitrary tyrant, petty and legalistic. (Which DOES seem to comport with the God of the Old Testament, doesn't it?)
    No, it means God gives us a choice..

  3. #13
    Veteran Member GordonGecko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    God could interfere, he has that power, but he won't.
    If he has the power to reprieve people from Hell, but won't......then he is a sadist.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
    No, it means God gives us a choice..
    Does he?

    If I held a gun to your head and said "Say you love me...or I'll blow your brains out"....is that a "choice" for you?

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    Veteran Member TNVolunteer73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Does he?

    If I held a gun to your head and said "Say you love me...or I'll blow your brains out"....is that a "choice" for you?
    God didn't hold a gun to my head, He put himself between the Gun and me and took the bullet.

  6. #16
    Veteran Member GordonGecko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
    God didn't hold a gun to my head, He put himself between the Gun and me and took the bullet.
    "Love God and he'll reward you with anything you want....fail to do that, or even fail to believe in him, and you'll be tortured for all Eternity"


    Who established that Rule?

  7. #17
    Veteran Member TNVolunteer73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Who built the Gun?
    Satan.

  8. #18
    Veteran Member GordonGecko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
    Satan.
    Really?

    And God couldn't stop him????

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Really?

    And God couldn't stop him????
    Again, what part of 'free will' can't you understand, eh?

    When jesus commanded us to love god above all things and love our neighbors as jesus loved us, do you imagine anyone can force you to love???? Is a creature devoid of free will capable of loving or being loved in the first place???? Do you imagine making a show of love is what this commandment meant?????

    And even if satan is an actual being imbued with free will, do you imagine divine laws changing just because he exists?????

    Duh?

  10. #20
    Veteran Member GordonGecko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Again, what part of 'free will' can't you understand, eh?

    When jesus commanded us to love god above all things and love our neighbors as jesus loved us, do you imagine anyone can force you to love???? Is a creature devoid of free will capable of loving or being loved in the first place???? Do you imagine making a show of love is what this commandment meant?????

    And even if satan is an actual being imbued with free will, do you imagine divine laws changing just because he exists?????

    Duh?
    I understand Free Will.....it means I'm more powerful than God, doesn't it?

    After all, if God is more powerful than my Free Will, he could "bend the rules" and save me from Hell, couldn't He? "Over-riding" my Free Will.


    But if he CAN NOT do that (even if by some "I can't violate my own Rule" Rule)....it means my Free Will is SUPERIOR to his Will.

    IOW, while you can claim "God gave you Free Will"....

    but if God can't "take it back"?...Free Will, MY Free Will, is more powerful than God.

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