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Thread: Wouldn't Free Will mean...we humans are more poweful than God?

  1. #21
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
    God didn't hold a gun to my head, He put himself between the Gun and me and took the bullet.
    Please - God never sacrificed anything for anyone. God is not capable of sacrifice, because the very nature of sacrifice means giving up something irreplaceable. Giving blood is not a sacrifice, because your body will regenerate the blood in short order. Giving a kidney, on the other hand, is a genuine sacrifice - for the rest of your life, you will be missing a kidney.

    For God to make a sacrifice, he would have to give up something irreplaceable. I know of no stories suggesting that the Judeo-Christian god ever did this.
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  2. #22
    Veteran Member GordonGecko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Please - God never sacrificed anything for anyone. God is not capable of sacrifice, because the very nature of sacrifice means giving up something irreplaceable. Giving blood is not a sacrifice, because your body will regenerate the blood in short order. Giving a kidney, on the other hand, is a genuine sacrifice - for the rest of your life, you will be missing a kidney.

    For God to make a sacrifice, he would have to give up something irreplaceable. I know of no stories suggesting that the Judeo-Christian god ever did this.

    The analogy of Jesus' "sacrifice" upon the Cross is this...



    You've lived for 1000 years in perfect peace, health, joy, and total freedom from pain......ONE day, you take an injection, with a needle. It stings like crazy for a few seconds....

    then you go back to immortality, in perfect peace, health, joy, and total freedom of pain....

    but now you want "credit" for being poked by that needle and it throbbing for a few seconds....as a "sacrifice" on your part.

  3. #23
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    ... but now you want "credit" for being poked by that needle and it throbbing for a few seconds....as a "sacrifice" on your part.
    Given that Jesus was allegedly up and walking around after the crucifixion, it doesn't qualify as a sacrifice. Had he died, his soul irrevocably extinguished for all time... that would be another matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Please - God never sacrificed anything for anyone. God is not capable of sacrifice, because the very nature of sacrifice means giving up something irreplaceable. Giving blood is not a sacrifice, because your body will regenerate the blood in short order. Giving a kidney, on the other hand, is a genuine sacrifice - for the rest of your life, you will be missing a kidney.

    For God to make a sacrifice, he would have to give up something irreplaceable. I know of no stories suggesting that the Judeo-Christian god ever did this.
    How about accepting man's judgment? You do not think it is a sacrifice for the creator to put himself before the created's judgment because he loves mankind?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    The analogy of Jesus' "sacrifice" upon the Cross is this...



    You've lived for 1000 years in perfect peace, health, joy, and total freedom from pain......ONE day, you take an injection, with a needle. It stings like crazy for a few seconds....

    then you go back to immortality, in perfect peace, health, joy, and total freedom of pain....

    but now you want "credit" for being poked by that needle and it throbbing for a few seconds....as a "sacrifice" on your part.
    What????

    You are completely ignoring the purpose of the crucifixion -- to save mankind from his own follies. Granted that god could have easily chosen another way to effect mankind's salvation other than the crucifixion -- the point was to demonstrate the extent of divine love (which is infinite) in a way that human beings can understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
    No, it means God gives us a choice..
    Does that mean a paranoid schizophrenic can choose not to be schizophrenic, or act out of his mental condition?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
    God didn't hold a gun to my head, He put himself between the Gun and me and took the bullet.
    But only for those who "choose" to believe.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    I understand Free Will.....it means I'm more powerful than God, doesn't it?

    After all, if God is more powerful than my Free Will, he could "bend the rules" and save me from Hell, couldn't He? "Over-riding" my Free Will.
    Over-riding your free will is tantamount to reducing you to an animal or an inanimate object -- neither knowing god in a meaningful way nor capable of expressing or feeling love.

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    But if he CAN NOT do that (even if by some "I can't violate my own Rule" Rule)....it means my Free Will is SUPERIOR to his Will.
    Of course not. Your free will is still subject to consequences according to your nature. If you betray that nature, then you reject that which is necessary for your existence as a human being.

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    IOW, while you can claim "God gave you Free Will"....

    but if God can't "take it back"?...Free Will, MY Free Will, is more powerful than God.
    What????

    If god took your free will away, you cease to be a human being and the entire point of creating a human being would become moot.

    It is like saying you have to avoid death but in so doing, you stop living your life the way it ought to be lived. What then is the point of avoiding death when you live as if you were better off dead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    But only for those who "choose" to believe.
    Sorry but we are not talking about particular dogma here. We are talking about god's self-revelation to you, personally. Catholics assert that there is salvation outside the catholic church and that an individual's response to god's self-revelation does not necessarily have to conform to the church's rules.

    God's self-revelation is an act of love and an individual's response is either to reciprocate or reject that love. How then can you reciprocate that love if you deny the giver's existence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Sorry but we are not talking about particular dogma here. We are talking about god's self-revelation to you, personally. Catholics assert that there is salvation outside the catholic church and that an individual's response to god's self-revelation does not necessarily have to conform to the church's rules.

    God's self-revelation is an act of love and an individual's response is either to reciprocate or reject that love. How then can you reciprocate that love if you deny the giver's existence?
    You assume that God reveals himself to everyone, and that everyone has the capacity to recognize that the revolution is from God, itself.

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