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Thread: Wouldn't Free Will mean...we humans are more poweful than God?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    You assume that God reveals himself to everyone,
    Correct.

    The premise is that creation is an act of divine love, and divine love would be moot without self-revelation. The covenant made with the chosen people is meaningless to christians if it does not ultimately accrue to all mankind.

    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    and that everyone has the capacity to recognize that the revolution is from God, itself.
    Correct.

    The capacity to recognize god's self-revelation is not dependent on the intellect understanding dogma. Conscience is the faculty by which man recognizes god's self-revelation.

  2. #32
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    How about accepting man's judgment? You do not think it is a sacrifice for the creator to put himself before the created's judgment because he loves mankind?
    No, because God can suffer no consequences as a result of mankind's judgement. It's like allowing my 12 year-old to critique my performance at my job. It's not a sacrifice on my part, because his opinion on my work carries no weight or consequence for me.

    God is incapable of sacrifice, because he is incapable of giving up anything that cannot be instantly and effortlessly replaced.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    No, because God can suffer no consequences as a result of mankind's judgement. It's like allowing my 12 year-old to critique my performance at my job. It's not a sacrifice on my part, because his opinion on my work carries no weight or consequence for me.

    God is incapable of sacrifice, because he is incapable of giving up anything that cannot be instantly and effortlessly replaced.
    Only if god doesn't love mankind.

    But that is the christian premise, is it not? That god created mankind out of love and that love is rendered moot if it is not reciprocated.

  4. #34
    Veteran Member GordonGecko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    What????

    You are completely ignoring the purpose of the crucifixion -- to save mankind from his own follies. Granted that god could have easily chosen another way to effect mankind's salvation other than the crucifixion -- the point was to demonstrate the extent of divine love (which is infinite) in a way that human beings can understand.
    None of that addresses my point (as is typical of you)....

    COMPARTIVELY, what was duration of Jesus' suffering on the Cross....compared to ENDLESS eons of peace, joy, and freedom of pain that Jesus will enjoy?


    So, like the "needle prick".....was it really a "sacrifice" on his part???

  5. #35
    Veteran Member GordonGecko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Only if god doesn't love mankind.

    But that is the christian premise, is it not? That god created mankind out of love and that love is rendered moot if it is not reciprocated.
    So God created man to love him.....and if man doesn't love him, God set up a system so that man is punished for not reciprocating that love?


    Naturally, you see no "ego" in that idea???

  6. #36
    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    If he has the power to reprieve people from Hell, but won't......then he is a sadist.
    Well feel free to remind Him of that every day for eternity when you are suffering such immense pain that you can do nothing but yell it out in the darkness......hour after hour, day after day, year after year.

    I am sure he will be listening.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    None of that addresses my point (as is typical of you)....

    COMPARTIVELY, what was duration of Jesus' suffering on the Cross....compared to ENDLESS eons of peace, joy, and freedom of pain that Jesus will enjoy?


    So, like the "needle prick".....was it really a "sacrifice" on his part???
    Are you saying man has stopped judging god right now? Your rants here are clear examples of man's judgment on god. You insist god couldn't possibly exist when you couldn't even explain how you came to exist without god.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    So God created man to love him.....and if man doesn't love him, God set up a system so that man is punished for not reciprocating that love?


    Naturally, you see no "ego" in that idea???
    I have already answered this. What you call punishment is merely the logical consequence of human nature.

    -Man is a created according to god's grace.
    -Man's continued existence is dependent on god's grace.
    -God reveals himself to man so that man may know and love god and his fellow men -- according to the dictates of his own human nature.
    -If man rejects that grace on which his being is dependent on, is it god's fault that you cease to become a human being along with the conditions necessary for your own happiness?

    It is you who are spewing nonsense here because you have the temerity to presume to know what other people believe.

  9. #39
    Veteran Member DebateDrone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by res View Post
    As we're just talking about the Bible, the OP is somewhat true from Christian or Muslim perspective but as far as I know it is not at all true from the Jewish perspective.

    Jews do not have a heaven or hell, nor do they have the devil. All is God, and God is one.
    I'm not all that theologically educated but to me that means that you are part of God, not outside from him/it.
    But you have free will to either accept that as true or not. Or something along those lines.
    Then in that respect, is there a "free will" in Judaism as there is in Christianity?

    I would suppose that being the people of God, Jews do not need to choose God, as Christians offer OTJs coming to God by choice.

  10. #40
    Veteran Member Isalexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    The entire idea is flawed. God made man in his own image.

    Okay....we do that with robots.

    God made the 10 Commandments and other laws.

    Strains credulity. They aren't unique. Every society that has ever existed has some version.

    But okay.

    God gives man free will.

    Seems like a design defect.

    God judges us at death.

    Humm.....it's that rather too late?

    God sends sinners to hell.

    Wait....aren't these people also made in God's image?

    God sends the righteous to heaven, for eternity.

    Why? Is God lonely?
    Since God is obviously male and we are all created in his image why are we not all men!

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