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Thread: Wouldn't Free Will mean...we humans are more poweful than God?

  1. #51
    Veteran Member cpicturetaker12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Apologists tell us "It's your choice of Heaven or Hell" ...really contradictory ones even discredit the idea that "God created Hell"...it's all "your own making".

    So as far as eschatology, if WE are totally in control of our after-life....God didn't create Hell and didn't create even the "process" of how the unsaved go to Hell...

    it's ALL up to our "Free Will"....

    then, on atleast a personal scale, WE are more powerful than God.


    UNLESS one wants to argue that God has the power to save us from our own "choice" to "choose Hell" and can interfere with that after we die?

    Which of course would negate the "reason" for Free Will ....wouldn't it?


    So either there is no Free Will, due to God being able to interfere after we die and move us to Heaven even though we didn't "chose" that.

    or God is POWERLESS in our eschatological outcomes, and thus not Omnipotent.


    Wait..."He CHOOSES not to save you from Hell...Free Will lasts even after death". Really?

    So he PROACTIVELY allows us to suffer for all eternity...just to maintain a "Rule" that He made up???

    For what purpose? To "teach us a lesson"....a lesson from which nothing can be learned, since it's already "too late"?



    To "maintain the Rules"....again, for what purpose? So the people who "chose" to be saved don't feel "cheated"? Are they really that PETTY that they demand "strict adherence to the Rules" or they get upset?

    or is GOD that petty?

    So there are your options (no doubt to be re-phrased by Apologists)-

    1. Free Will doesn't exist..and the Predestination folks are right and no matter what you do, you're going to be saved because God decided that at the beginning of time?

    2. God is helpless.

    3. God is an arbitrary tyrant, petty and legalistic. (Which DOES seem to comport with the God of the Old Testament, doesn't it?)
    Free will is ABSURD. I got in my first argument about this at about 13 with a (Catholic) Catechism teacher. I contended that as NOW. If God was all knowing, all powerful, and created us--he knew what way we would 'CHOOSE'.

    It was a set up!

    PS If he created us in "his own image", he must have been a sinner too, right?? I'm just saying.
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  2. #52
    Veteran Member Isalexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    But he also has power over death itself, which makes all that irrelevant.



    Obviously, you would be guilty of sins by omission.

    Do you imagine god to be subject to your personal judgement? People die, whether by someone else's action or through the natural course of one's life. The difference being you are powerless in the face of death while god has absolute power over death.
    You seem to be contradicting yourself. If God has absolute power over death then he certainly is an evil man
    Last edited by Isalexi; 15th March 2017 at 12:58 PM.
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  3. #53
    Veteran Member Isalexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Are you saying that God's love is conditional on reciprocation? Seems rather petty. But then, God never raised a child, so I can't expect that he would understand.
    And he wants to be worshipped. I can relate as I used to have my students worship me to get better grades. I built a shrine in my classroom.

  4. #54
    Veteran Member Isalexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpicturetaker12 View Post
    Free will is ABSURD. I got in my first argument about this at about 13 with a (Catholic) Catechism teacher. I contended that as NOW. If God was all knowing, all powerful, and created us--he knew what way we would 'CHOOSE'.

    It was a set up!

    PS If he created us in "his own image", he must have been a sinner too, right?? I'm just saying.
    And we should all have penises

  5. #55
    Veteran Member TNVolunteer73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpicturetaker12 View Post
    Free will is ABSURD. I got in my first argument about this at about 13 with a (Catholic) Catechism teacher. I contended that as NOW. If God was all knowing, all powerful, and created us--he knew what way we would 'CHOOSE'.

    It was a set up!

    PS If he created us in "his own image", he must have been a sinner too, right?? I'm just saying.
    When I purchased a Cookie Jar, I knew that there would be a day one of my children would reach and get a cookie without permission..


    He did not create US in his image he created ADAM in his image.. not clone..

    he gave Adam a Soul, a flesh and bone body, and a spirit...

    God has a Soul. He reviles this to us as God the Father, he also has a flesh and Bone body, reviled to us as Jesus the Christ, and he has a spirit reviled to us as the Holy Spirit.

    we are made in the image of our parents and their ancestors.
    Last edited by TNVolunteer73; 15th March 2017 at 01:04 PM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Those are two separate beliefs. Perhaps our physical bodies are shells of our actual shelves - but why should those selves survive the deterioration of our physical bodies? There's evidence to support non-existence; after all, your "actual self" did not exist until you were born (or conceived, if you wish).

    Why is it so hard to believe that it may return to non-existence in the future? Unlike habitation in some celestial realm, non-existence is a precedented state.
    Actually, no.

    Nothing in the human experience comes even close to a process of creation (a being out of nothing) nor annihilation (a being into nothing). What people see around them (for as long as mankind has existed) is a cycle of birth, death and rebirth. And as descartes aptly postulated, only the self can be intuitively known to exist. So, is it any wonder that a big part of philosophical inquiries would deal with the subject of the self's existence after death?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    The child does not have to accept a parent's love; but the love is still given, regardless and unconditionally.
    Precisely.

    As I said, it is human nature that is conditional. It's very existence is conditional to divine grace. And divine grace is given unconditionally and unilaterally to anyone who would care to respond to it.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isalexi View Post
    You seem to be contradicting yourself. If God has absolute power over death then he certainly is an evil man
    Why is that, I wonder?

  9. #59
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    ... Nothing in the human experience comes even close to a process of creation (a being out of nothing) nor annihilation (a being into nothing).
    Your lack of personal experience from 1874 is not the result of amnesia - it's the result of your not existing in 1874. Likewise, you didn't exist ten thousand, or ten million years ago.

  10. #60
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Precisely.

    As I said, it is human nature that is conditional. It's very existence is conditional to divine grace. And divine grace is given unconditionally and unilaterally to anyone who would care to respond to it.
    But "responding to it" is a condition.

    IF you don't respond to divine grace THEN it is withheld.

    That's a condition.

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