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Thread: Wouldn't Free Will mean...we humans are more poweful than God?

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    Veteran Member GordonGecko's Avatar
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    Wouldn't Free Will mean...we humans are more poweful than God?

    Apologists tell us "It's your choice of Heaven or Hell" ...really contradictory ones even discredit the idea that "God created Hell"...it's all "your own making".

    So as far as eschatology, if WE are totally in control of our after-life....God didn't create Hell and didn't create even the "process" of how the unsaved go to Hell...

    it's ALL up to our "Free Will"....

    then, on atleast a personal scale, WE are more powerful than God.


    UNLESS one wants to argue that God has the power to save us from our own "choice" to "choose Hell" and can interfere with that after we die?

    Which of course would negate the "reason" for Free Will ....wouldn't it?


    So either there is no Free Will, due to God being able to interfere after we die and move us to Heaven even though we didn't "chose" that.

    or God is POWERLESS in our eschatological outcomes, and thus not Omnipotent.


    Wait..."He CHOOSES not to save you from Hell...Free Will lasts even after death". Really?

    So he PROACTIVELY allows us to suffer for all eternity...just to maintain a "Rule" that He made up???

    For what purpose? To "teach us a lesson"....a lesson from which nothing can be learned, since it's already "too late"?



    To "maintain the Rules"....again, for what purpose? So the people who "chose" to be saved don't feel "cheated"? Are they really that PETTY that they demand "strict adherence to the Rules" or they get upset?

    or is GOD that petty?

    So there are your options (no doubt to be re-phrased by Apologists)-

    1. Free Will doesn't exist..and the Predestination folks are right and no matter what you do, you're going to be saved because God decided that at the beginning of time?

    2. God is helpless.

    3. God is an arbitrary tyrant, petty and legalistic. (Which DOES seem to comport with the God of the Old Testament, doesn't it?)

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Apologists tell us "It's your choice of Heaven or Hell" ...really contradictory ones even discredit the idea that "God created Hell"...it's all "your own making".

    So as far as eschatology, if WE are totally in control of our after-life....God didn't create Hell and didn't create even the "process" of how the unsaved go to Hell...

    it's ALL up to our "Free Will"....

    then, on atleast a personal scale, WE are more powerful than God.


    UNLESS one wants to argue that God has the power to save us from our own "choice" to "choose Hell" and can interfere with that after we die?

    Which of course would negate the "reason" for Free Will ....wouldn't it?


    So either there is no Free Will, due to God being able to interfere after we die and move us to Heaven even though we didn't "chose" that.

    or God is POWERLESS in our eschatological outcomes, and thus not Omnipotent.


    Wait..."He CHOOSES not to save you from Hell...Free Will lasts even after death". Really?

    So he PROACTIVELY allows us to suffer for all eternity...just to maintain a "Rule" that He made up???

    For what purpose? To "teach us a lesson"....a lesson from which nothing can be learned, since it's already "too late"?



    To "maintain the Rules"....again, for what purpose? So the people who "chose" to be saved don't feel "cheated"? Are they really that PETTY that they demand "strict adherence to the Rules" or they get upset?

    or is GOD that petty?

    So there are your options (no doubt to be re-phrased by Apologists)-

    1. Free Will doesn't exist..and the Predestination folks are right and no matter what you do, you're going to be saved because God decided that at the beginning of time?

    2. God is helpless.

    3. God is an arbitrary tyrant, petty and legalistic. (Which DOES seem to comport with the God of the Old Testament, doesn't it?)
    Wow. I don't even know how you got all that from what I said.

    Do you not feel the logical consequences of the choices you make? If you bash your brains in, will you not feel that crushing pain in your tiny head just because you have free will???

    Hello?

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    I'm not sure whether it makes individuals more powerful than the imagination, but "free will" was always organized religions' Get-Out-Jail-Free card.
    Thanks from Friday13

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Apologists tell us "It's your choice of Heaven or Hell" ...really contradictory ones even discredit the idea that "God created Hell"...it's all "your own making".

    So as far as eschatology, if WE are totally in control of our after-life....God didn't create Hell and didn't create even the "process" of how the unsaved go to Hell...

    it's ALL up to our "Free Will"....

    then, on atleast a personal scale, WE are more powerful than God.


    UNLESS one wants to argue that God has the power to save us from our own "choice" to "choose Hell" and can interfere with that after we die?

    Which of course would negate the "reason" for Free Will ....wouldn't it?


    So either there is no Free Will, due to God being able to interfere after we die and move us to Heaven even though we didn't "chose" that.

    or God is POWERLESS in our eschatological outcomes, and thus not Omnipotent.


    Wait..."He CHOOSES not to save you from Hell...Free Will lasts even after death". Really?

    So he PROACTIVELY allows us to suffer for all eternity...just to maintain a "Rule" that He made up???

    For what purpose? To "teach us a lesson"....a lesson from which nothing can be learned, since it's already "too late"?



    To "maintain the Rules"....again, for what purpose? So the people who "chose" to be saved don't feel "cheated"? Are they really that PETTY that they demand "strict adherence to the Rules" or they get upset?

    or is GOD that petty?

    So there are your options (no doubt to be re-phrased by Apologists)-

    1. Free Will doesn't exist..and the Predestination folks are right and no matter what you do, you're going to be saved because God decided that at the beginning of time?

    2. God is helpless.

    3. God is an arbitrary tyrant, petty and legalistic. (Which DOES seem to comport with the God of the Old Testament, doesn't it?)
    The entire idea is flawed. God made man in his own image.

    Okay....we do that with robots.

    God made the 10 Commandments and other laws.

    Strains credulity. They aren't unique. Every society that has ever existed has some version.

    But okay.

    God gives man free will.

    Seems like a design defect.

    God judges us at death.

    Humm.....it's that rather too late?

    God sends sinners to hell.

    Wait....aren't these people also made in God's image?

    God sends the righteous to heaven, for eternity.

    Why? Is God lonely?
    Last edited by Madeline; 5th March 2017 at 02:29 PM.

  5. #5
    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Apologists tell us "It's your choice of Heaven or Hell" ...really contradictory ones even discredit the idea that "God created Hell"...it's all "your own making".

    So as far as eschatology, if WE are totally in control of our after-life....God didn't create Hell and didn't create even the "process" of how the unsaved go to Hell...

    it's ALL up to our "Free Will"....

    then, on atleast a personal scale, WE are more powerful than God.


    UNLESS one wants to argue that God has the power to save us from our own "choice" to "choose Hell" and can interfere with that after we die?

    Which of course would negate the "reason" for Free Will ....wouldn't it?


    So either there is no Free Will, due to God being able to interfere after we die and move us to Heaven even though we didn't "chose" that.

    or God is POWERLESS in our eschatological outcomes, and thus not Omnipotent.


    Wait..."He CHOOSES not to save you from Hell...Free Will lasts even after death". Really?

    So he PROACTIVELY allows us to suffer for all eternity...just to maintain a "Rule" that He made up???

    For what purpose? To "teach us a lesson"....a lesson from which nothing can be learned, since it's already "too late"?



    To "maintain the Rules"....again, for what purpose? So the people who "chose" to be saved don't feel "cheated"? Are they really that PETTY that they demand "strict adherence to the Rules" or they get upset?

    or is GOD that petty?

    So there are your options (no doubt to be re-phrased by Apologists)-

    1. Free Will doesn't exist..and the Predestination folks are right and no matter what you do, you're going to be saved because God decided that at the beginning of time?

    2. God is helpless.

    3. God is an arbitrary tyrant, petty and legalistic. (Which DOES seem to comport with the God of the Old Testament, doesn't it?)
    God could interfere, he has that power, but he won't.

    We do not have the power to change the choice we made.

    That makes God more powerful.

  6. #6
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    As we're just talking about the Bible, the OP is somewhat true from Christian or Muslim perspective but as far as I know it is not at all true from the Jewish perspective.

    Jews do not have a heaven or hell, nor do they have the devil. All is God, and God is one.
    I'm not all that theologically educated but to me that means that you are part of God, not outside from him/it.
    But you have free will to either accept that as true or not. Or something along those lines.
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey, labrea and DebateDrone

  7. #7
    Veteran Member cpicturetaker12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    The entire idea is flawed. God made man in his own image.

    Okay....we do that with robots.

    God made the 10 Commandments and other laws.

    Strains credulity. They aren't unique. Every society that has ever existed has some version.

    But okay.

    God gives man free will.

    Seems like a design defect.

    God judges us at death.

    Humm.....it's that rather too late?

    God sends sinners to he'll.

    Wait....aren't these people also made in God's image?

    God sends the righteous to heaven, for eternity.

    Why? Is God lonely?
    I've told many 'born agains' over the years, God had a serious 'quality control' problem.
    Thanks from Madeline

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    Bizarroland Observer Thx1138's Avatar
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    I'm not quite following your reasoning here.

    Now, is it established that this free will is given by God?

    Well, then if they gave it to man in the first place, can it not be taken away?

    Is it really free will then or "allowed will"?

    And wouldn't the one who grants free will always have to be more powerful than the one they give the grant to?

    Thx
    Thanks from Madeline

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    God could interfere, he has that power, but he won't.

    We do not have the power to change the choice we made.

    That makes God more powerful.
    Okay, but why? Why would God DESIGN us to be violent, etc. And then not interfere?

    Are we just ants in an ant farm to him?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    I'm not sure whether it makes individuals more powerful than the imagination, but "free will" was always organized religions' Get-Out-Jail-Free card.
    Not at all. John locke's political philosophy, the idea that government power resides from the consent of the governed, is entirely based on the idea of an individual's free will that is imbued by the creator. Your founding fathers didn't have any problems with that, now, did they?

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