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Thread: Secular families are ethical families

  1. #31
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    mmm...I would challenge you with Djinn's question: You die, and (having lived a good life) qualify for heaven. But before you pass through the pearly gates, you are given the opportunity to give your "gate pass" to a stranger who didn't QUITE make the cut. Would you keep the pass for yourself, having spent a lifetime earning it? Or would you give it to the stranger, because the "eternal reward" wasn't the reason you led a moral life?
    No one is able to give anyone an entrance card to heaven - nor knows anyone whether he has such an entrance card for the own person. But the essence of your question is somehow part of my life. Long years ago I drove with my car on the Autobahn and awoke in an intensive care unit. I knew immediately where I was - although I did not know what had happened. My first thoughts was: "If you had died now, then you could stay to be in heaven." I was not happy about to have to continue to live here on Earth with the full risk to go to hell. God said to me: "Yes, that's true. This is your risk. But you agreed.". "Not fair not to know what I agreed with", I thought - but I was not really angry.

    I had to think this days about this problem again, specially because of Mr. Erdogan - the future dictator of Turkey. I guess as long as the Turkish people will vote for him he will not manipulate the results of elections - otherwise he will do so. If I think about this man with my knowledge about the Nazis then I know very clear: I have no guarantee to go to heaven and he has no guarantee not to be killed from me - as long as I am convinced he will harm all mankind drastically. I think in this context specially about Georg Elser. Georg Elser had no chance. If he had killed Hitler, then everyone had said he's a criminal terrorist and murderer and they had executed him, because the worst crimes of Hitler would had never happened - and the other possibility had happened, so the Nazis had killed him finally after a long period of captivity, where he had to suffer a lot. Sometimes no choice seems to be able to be a good choice. But god knows, that's my hope.

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 15th March 2017 at 08:19 AM.

  2. #32
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaangalewa View Post
    No one is able to give anyone an entrance card to heaven - nor knows anyone whether he has such an entrance card for the own person. But the essence of your question is somehow part of my life. Long years ago I drove with my car on the Autobahn and awoke in an intensive care unit. I knew immediately where I was - although I did not know what had happened. My first thoughts was: "If you had died now, then you could stay to be in heaven." I was not happy about to have to continue to live here on Earth with the full risk to go to hell. God said to me: "Yes, that's true. This is your risk. But you agreed.". "Not fair not to know what I agreed with", I thought - but I was not really angry.

    I had to think this days about this problem again, specially because of Mr. Erdogan - the future dictator of Turkey. I guess as long as the Turkish people will vote for him he will not manipulate the results of elections - otherwise he will do so. If I think about this man with my knowledge about the Nazis then I know very clear: I have no guarantee to go to heaven and he has no guarantee not to be killed from me - as long as I am convinced he will harm all mankind drastically. I think in this context specially about Georg Elser. Georg Elser had no chance. If he had killed Hitler, then everyone had said he's a criminal terrorist and murderer and they had executed him, because the worst crimes of Hitler would had never happened - and the other possibility had happened, so the Nazis had killed him finally after a long period of captivity, where he had to suffer a lot. Sometimes no choice seems to be able to be a good choice. But god knows, that's my hope.

    It's a thought exercise, not expected to be an actual possibility. The fact that you could not even imagine a circumstance in which you would exchange your place in heaven/paradise/Baltimore, for the sake of another is the point. Whether you wish to admit it to yourself, or not, the reality is that you live as you live, not because it is the right thing to do, but for the promise of reward.

    Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

  3. #33
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    The problem with the OP is that religion and religious are terms that cannot be defined.

    Some religions have no deity.

    Many secular philosophies are still built on ideals and can be closely, passionately held.

    It's an impossible mish-mash.

    The truth is that morality is an individual matter and yes, one can be be quite moral by one's own standards for morality.

    So, yes, I can recycle and pay taxes and give to charity and volunteer at the soup kitchen and remain faithful to my spouse, but I have no problem with abortion.

    So who is to be the judge?
    That's kinda the point...

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  4. #34
    Veteran Member Dr Sampson Simpson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    I just think that after all of the misrepresentation that atheists are, by definition, amoral hedonists who are incapable of formulating any moral codes, it's gratifying to know that we now have statistical data to verify that this is demonstrably not true.
    Considering the insane amount of incredibly messed up things many religious people do, its astounding. But its OK, god will forgive them, so they can go around acting that way.

    The drama that happens in my moms small town in montana is astounding. Stuff I've never seen happen to many of my friends, very little who are religious.

  5. #35
    Veteran Member Dr Sampson Simpson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YodaOne View Post
    ^^^How this Thread is totally lost its focus!
    OBTW I am not Christian.
    Laughter is good for the Soul.
    it always does when Rorscach arrives to deflect and jump on his cross
    Thanks from Friday13

  6. #36
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    It's a thought exercise, not expected to be an actual possibility.
    That's for me not a difference. To like to kill someone is in my spiritual view of the worlds the same as to try to kill someone and perhaps spiritually as criminal as to do it. I never would allow me to enter heaven. But I don't know. God knows.

    The fact that you could not even imagine a circumstance in which you would exchange your place in heaven/paradise/Baltimore, for the sake of another is the point. Whether you wish to admit it to yourself, or not, the reality is that you live as you live, not because it is the right thing to do, but for the promise of reward. ...
    Again: No one has an entrance card to heaven, so no one is able to give this entrance card to someone else - not even to the own person, even if this person had in the past the allowance to enter heaven, but did not do so on whatever reason. Your question is without substance. You hate the belief in god and I guess you hate also all people, who believe in god. You invest a lot of energy to fight against the belief in god. That's your self-slavery. If the belief in god will die, then you will win nothing: also not an entrance card to heaven.

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 17th March 2017 at 01:00 AM.

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