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Thread: Was the Garden of Eden a case of "police entrapment"?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    But the rule shouldn't have been necessary. Let's say you put a child in a playroom and say "You can play with whatever you want in this room. But see that sparking wire protruding from the wall? Whatever you do, don't touch it."

    Then you program all the stuffed animals to say things like "The sparking wire is your friend!" and "The sparking wire tastes like candy!"

    You're setting up the kid for a trip to the hospital - or worse. No, you fix the damned wire before letting the kids play. That's assuming you give two shits about your kids, of course.
    That is a horrendous analogy.

    First of all, man is imbued with a natural intelligence -- not like an ignorant child.

    The scam is, if you touch the live wire, you would be as powerful as the man who put you in the play pen in the first place.

    The lesson is, however smart you become, you are still subject to the rules instituted in the play pen and that if you ignore these rules, you will suffer the consequences of your folly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    But look at how it was put to them....two naive beings, who had NO CONCEPT of "death", were told "If ye eat the fruit of the Tree, ye shall know death".

    That's like me threatening you with "galazumik-zoopie" if you eat from that Pop-Tart bush.....if you have no idea what "galazumik-zoopie" or that it means "eternal torture"?....then you have no idea how DANGEROUS it would be to eat the Pop-Tart?

    Plus even under entrapment laws, it's accepted that the "perp" may know that the action is illegal...but if the "cops" purposely set up the "sting" just to bust the person, it's still entrapment.
    What????

    Do you not think that much of the evil in the world comes from our misuse of human knowledge without moral restraint?

    Splitting the atom may result in power generation necessary to sustain life or destruction of the entire planet many times over. Are you really blaming god if you choose the latter (against your better judgment) and inevitably destroy yourself and everyone on the planet?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    But to extend tha analogy further, in that case? The Nanny upon discovering the child touched the wire?

    Kicks the child out of the house to fend for themselves on the street.
    So, one minute we are talking about toys and instantly, its fending for themselves on the street? YOU CANNOT REMAIN IN THE PLAY PEN IF YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THE RULES OF THE PLAY PEN. So, you're access to the things that would make you happy, the toys, are denied you until such time that you are able to follow the rules.

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    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Was the Garden of Eden a case of "police entrapment"?

    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    So, one minute we are talking about toys and instantly, its fending for themselves on the street? YOU CANNOT REMAIN IN THE PLAY PEN IF YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THE RULES OF THE PLAY PEN. So, you're access to the things that would make you happy, the toys, are denied you until such time that you are able to follow the rules.
    So why would you deliberately tempt them to break the rules? God *allowed* the serpent to put pressure on Eve. He knew that Adam and Eve were literally the most gullible people on earth, and he allowed it...

    ... if not orchestrated it.
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    Veteran Member Spookycolt's Avatar
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    One has to logically conclude that Adam and Eve were the only two people to not be given free will.

    There sin is what allowed God to bring evil into the world and this giving us the choice.

    I am fairly certain that those first two were scripted because it was necessary for the rest of us.

    It's similar to how Jesus was scripted to die.

    Those are really the only two cases I can think of where necessity demanded an intervention from God.

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    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    Here's my favourite part of the Garden of Eden story.

    The apple tree is actually called the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And basically the concept is you can do exactly what God and dogma tells you, or, you can choose "knowledge of good and evil". At which point you're responsible for "knowing" what is good or bad, right or wrong, for yourself. As opposed to just dumbly doing what you're told.

    Once you take a bite you can never go back.

    And the choice is made by taking an apple off an apple tree.

    2000 years later, Sir Isaac Newton is looking at an apple tree in Lincolnshire. And one falls off....
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  7. #17
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    One has to logically conclude that Adam and Eve were the only two people to not be given free will.

    There sin is what allowed God to bring evil into the world and this giving us the choice.

    I am fairly certain that those first two were scripted because it was necessary for the rest of us.

    It's similar to how Jesus was scripted to die.

    Those are really the only two cases I can think of where necessity demanded an intervention from God.
    According to Milton (who was just guessing like the rest of us), God created us with free will, but he is omniscient. He knows everything.

    He didn't tell them to sin. He didn't make them sin. He created them with free will and knew them, perfectly, so he knew that they would sin. He just knows ahead of time what we're going to freely choose of our own reee will.

    He created time. He's not stuck in it. Past present and future would all be visible at once.

    Think of The story of the Lion King. Think of the whole story, imagine it.

    Did YOU just kill Simba's dad? Did You cause Scar to do it?

    Or do you just already know he's going to do it?

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    vulgar? Rasselas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    On the other hand, they were give one rule, and could not even keep that one rule.
    Dog's got to bark, a mule's got to bray.
    Soldiers must fight and preachers must pray.
    And children, I guess, must get their own way
    The minute that you say no.

    Why did the kids pour jam on the cat?
    Raspberry jam all over the cat?
    Why should the kids do something like that,
    When all that we said was no?

    My son was once afraid to swim.
    The water made him wince.
    Until I said he mustn't swim:
    S'been swimmin' ever since!

    S'been swimmin' ever since!

    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    Dog's got to bark, a mule's got to bray.
    Soldiers must fight and preachers must pray.
    And children, I guess, must get their own way
    The minute that you say no.

    Why did the kids put beans in their ears?
    No one can hear with beans in their ears.
    After a while the reason appears.
    They did it cause we said no.

    Your daughter brings a young man in,
    Says "Do you like him, Pa?"
    Just say that he's a fool and then:
    You've got a son-in-law!

    You've got a son-in-law!

    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    Sure as the June comes right after May!
    Sure as the night comes right after day!
    You can be sure the devil's to pay
    The minute that you say no.

    Make sure you never say...
    No!

    Thanks from Friday13

  9. #19
    Above the FRAY Friday13's Avatar
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    Interesting that Roald Dahl hated the 1971 version of Willy Wonka. The 2005 version is how the story was written.

    Ever wonder why Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator hasn’t followed in the silver screen footsteps of its predecessor, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? Because Roald Dahl felt the movie version of his book was “crummy,” found Gene Wilder’s Willy Wonka to be “pretentious” and “bouncy,” and thought the director had “no talent or flair.” He vowed that film producers would never get their hands on the sequel to similarly ruin it, at least not in his lifetime.

    11 Authors Who Hated the Movie Versions of Their Books | Mental Floss


    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Reminds me of one of the differences between the 1971 and 2005 versions of Willy Wonka / Charlie & the Chocolate Factory.

    Everyone remembers the scene where Violet Beauregard turns into a giant blueberry after eating a piece of experimental gum. But not everyone noticed the difference in how the scene was executed.

    In the 1971 version, Willy Wonka was holding the piece of gum, describing it to the kids. Violet literally snatched it out of Wonka's hands, and ate it. It was not offered to her; the little brat grabbed it.

    In the 2005 version, one of Willy Wonka's machines extended a delicately-unfolding CGI mechanical arm, that gently OFFERED her the dangerous confectionery, which Violet accepted.

    IMO, this is a big difference. The latter is entrapment, much like the Eden story in the OP.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    So why would you deliberately tempt them to break the rules? God *allowed* the serpent to put pressure on Eve. He knew that Adam and Eve were literally the most gullible people on earth, and he allowed it...

    ... if not orchestrated it.
    Of course it was orchestrated! Man's fall is a result of his rejection of that one thing necessary for his existence -- divine grace.

    Why orchestrate it that way in the first place? Because the faculty by which you reject divine grace is the same faculty by which you accept it.

    If it weren't orchestrated that way, then you would be an animal, plant or inanimate object -- incapable of either accepting or rejecting divine grace. Creation would be DEVOID of love and a god who is essentially love would cease to become so.

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