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Thread: Why doesn’t FFRF go after Muslims?

  1. #1611
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No, you do not. It is YOU who has something else in mind - a "moshiach" that contradicts the Torah is not the moshiach.
    This is only because your people refuse to believe the prophet Jeremiah and what he said about the New Covenant.
    Doesn't get much more clear then what Isiah said.
    Chapter 53
    The Suffering Servant
    1 aWho has believed our message?
    And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
    2 For He grew up before Him like a atender 1shoot,
    And like a root out of parched ground;
    He has bno stately form or majesty
    That we should look upon Him,
    Nor appearance that we should 2be attracted to Him.
    3 He was adespised and forsaken of men,
    A man of 1sorrows and bacquainted with 2grief;
    And like one from whom men hide their face
    He was cdespised, and we did not desteem Him.
    4 Surely our 1griefs He Himself abore,
    And our 2sorrows He carried;
    Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
    3Smitten of bGod, and afflicted.
    5 But He was 1pierced through for aour transgressions,
    He was crushed for bour iniquities;
    The cchastening for our 2well-being fell upon Him,
    And by dHis scourging we are healed.
    6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
    Each of us has turned to his own way;
    But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
    To 1fall on Him.
    7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
    Yet He did not aopen His mouth;
    bLike a lamb that is led to slaughter,
    And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
    So He did not open His mouth.
    8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
    And as for His generation, who considered
    That He was cut off out of the land of the 1living
    aFor the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
    9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
    Yet He was with a arich man in His death,
    bBecause He had cdone no violence,
    Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
    10 But the Lord was pleased
    To acrush Him, 1bputting Him to grief;
    If 2He would render Himself as a guilt coffering,
    He will see dHis 3offspring,
    He will prolong His days,
    And the 4good epleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
    11 As a result of the 1anguish of His soul,
    He will asee 2it and be satisfied;
    By His bknowledge the Righteous One,
    My Servant, will justify the many,
    As He will cbear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore, I will allot Him a aportion with the great,
    And He will divide the booty with the strong;
    Because He poured out 1bHimself to death,
    And was cnumbered with the transgressors;
    Yet He Himself dbore the sin of many,
    And interceded for the transgressors.

  2. #1612
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    This is only because your people refuse to believe the prophet Jeremiah and what he said about the New Covenant.
    No, we do not. You are lying again, and your antisemitism is showing. And you are trolling, to continue repeating the same old lie over and over again.

    Your problem is that you cannot accept that Jews know our religion and our books better than you do, and that will never change.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Doesn't get much more clear then what Isiah said.
    Yeshayahu said nothing about your Jesus, in Chapter 53 or anywhere else. You are making that up, trying to shoehorn him into the Tanakh yet again. The "suffering servant" in Chapter 53, as in 52 and 54, is Israel referred to in the singular.

    https://outreachjudaism.org/isaiah-5...ave-long-life/
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  3. #1613
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No, we do not. You are lying again, and your antisemitism is showing. And you are trolling, to continue repeating the same old lie over and over again.

    Your problem is that you cannot accept that Jews know our religion and our books better than you do, and that will never change.


    Yeshayahu said nothing about your Jesus, in Chapter 53 or anywhere else. You are making that up, trying to shoehorn him into the Tanakh yet again. The "suffering servant" in Chapter 53, as in 52 and 54, is Israel referred to in the singular.

    https://outreachjudaism.org/isaiah-5...ave-long-life/
    How do you figure? " As He will bear their iniquities." "He would render Himself as a guilt offering," "He was with a rich man in His death"

    Jesus fits all this criteria. He is the redeemer, He offered himself for the sacrifice and his was buried in a rich mans tomb.
    Last edited by aboutenough; 6th November 2017 at 04:11 PM.

  4. #1614
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Your only hope is all historical writings can be dismissed as false to win your argument. Pretty sad argument
    In Kakuro puzzles, there are darkened cells and light cells. The darkened cells have a triangle in either the upper right or lower left corners, and each triangle has a number in it. If the number is in the upper right triangle, the light horizontal cells next to it must contain numbers that add up to the number contained in the triangle. If the number is in the lower left corner of the triangle, the light vertical cells below it must add up to the number in the triangle.

    Arguments work the same way, except the premises are the numbers in the light cells and the conclusions are the numbers in the triangles. The premises are the beginning and middle, the conclusion is the end, and the argument follows a logical order from beginning, middle and end.

    In Fist of the North Star, the warriors from rival clans kill each other by hitting their opponent in his vital organs. Debating works the same way, except the premises are the vital organs, and you can block off attacks to them by establishing verifiable, valid premises, just like the warriors physically do in the manga.

    In your assertion above, there aren't even any premises to verify, defend and critically analyze. It is just an Argument by Assertion where you only assert something is true. It is like a small pile of dirt that I can step on.
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  5. #1615
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    3. Jesus Crucifixion is Historically Certain.

    There are many independent sources that attest to Jesus’ crucifixion. So many in fact that it is beyond doubt that Jesus really died on a cross. We find that all four canonical gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke, John) attesting to this fact.

    We also find Serapion, in his letter, refers to the crucifixion of the “wise king”. Josephus Flavius, writing within the 1st century, refers to Jesus’ crucifixion very vividly, “And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross.” Cornelius Tacitus, writing in the early 2nd century, in his work Annals also refers to Jesus’ crucifixion. Eddy and Boyd state that it is now “firmly established” that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus. The much later Jewish Talmud states that “On the eve of the Passover Yeshu (Jesus) was hanged.” The early Church fathers unanimously believed that Jesus was crucified on a cross, for instance Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp.

    No credible historian rejects that Jesus was crucified. Scholar John Crossan, of the radical Jesus Seminar, writes: “That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be.”

    According to atheist scholar Gerd Ludemann: “Jesus’ death as a result of crucifixion is indisputable.” https://jamesbishopblog.com/2015/01/...eally-existed/
    You even disagree with atheist.
    If you earned a bachelor's degree in history like I did, you would know that the burden of proof is much higher than that in order to prove a thesis. One of my teachers plainly stated: I'm the judge, you're the lawyer, prove your argument to me like you would in court.

    If a prosecutor says a man was shot, he or she would have to present the dead body with the bullet lodged in it.

    If you say Christ was crucified, where is his body with puncture holes in his wrists, palms or wherever they punctured him? Earlier you said Christ was resurrected. If he flew up into the sky, you couldn't prove he was crucified because his corpse would be gone.

    That entire article is nothing more than brief appeals to authority and deceptive social referencing. So what if an atheist believes Christ was a real person? That doesn't mean he actually was. You use the same deceptive social referencing that advertisers use to scam people into buying a crappy product for a high price. It doesn't matter if those people quoted in the article hold prestigious positions at universities. That doesn't exempt their arguments from criticism.
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  6. #1616
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    How do you figure?
    I "figure" because you are shoehorning. You want Jesus to fit, so you try to make him fit, even though he does not. Remember, he only needs to have failed one criterion, and he failed many.

  7. #1617
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    In Kakuro puzzles, there are darkened cells and light cells. The darkened cells have a triangle in either the upper right or lower left corners, and each triangle has a number in it. If the number is in the upper right triangle, the light horizontal cells next to it must contain numbers that add up to the number contained in the triangle. If the number is in the lower left corner of the triangle, the light vertical cells below it must add up to the number in the triangle.

    Arguments work the same way, except the premises are the numbers in the light cells and the conclusions are the numbers in the triangles. The premises are the beginning and middle, the conclusion is the end, and the argument follows a logical order from beginning, middle and end.

    In Fist of the North Star, the warriors from rival clans kill each other by hitting their opponent in his vital organs. Debating works the same way, except the premises are the vital organs, and you can block off attacks to them by establishing verifiable, valid premises, just like the warriors physically do in the manga.

    In your assertion above, there aren't even any premises to verify, defend and critically analyze. It is just an Argument by Assertion where you only assert something is true. It is like a small pile of dirt that I can step on.
    You are asserting no historical evidence is true, hence you end up arguing that nothing is true by assumption. A guy named Lee Strobel was an investigative reporter that tried to prove the evidence was false because his wife became a Christian. He was trying to rescue his wife from what he thought was a false religion. Strobel was an Atheist that set out to prove her faith wrong. He wrote a book called a "Case for Christ" about twenty years ago, a movie of that book just came out this year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_for_Christ. At least this atheist looked into the evidence rather then doing what you do , is to dismiss all evidence without even looking into it. I thought Critical thinking skills would cause you to do that.

  8. #1618
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    I "figure" because you are shoehorning. You want Jesus to fit, so you try to make him fit, even though he does not. Remember, he only needs to have failed one criterion, and he failed many.
    Actually just he opposite is happening. Your religion tries to shoe horn Jesus out of every prophecy that was made. They still haven't figured out how to shoehorn him out of being born in Bethlehem.

  9. #1619
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    If you earned a bachelor's degree in history like I did, you would know that the burden of proof is much higher than that in order to prove a thesis. One of my teachers plainly stated: I'm the judge, you're the lawyer, prove your argument to me like you would in court.

    If a prosecutor says a man was shot, he or she would have to present the dead body with the bullet lodged in it.

    If you say Christ was crucified, where is his body with puncture holes in his wrists, palms or wherever they punctured him? Earlier you said Christ was resurrected. If he flew up into the sky, you couldn't prove he was crucified because his corpse would be gone.

    That entire article is nothing more than brief appeals to authority and deceptive social referencing. So what if an atheist believes Christ was a real person? That doesn't mean he actually was. You use the same deceptive social referencing that advertisers use to scam people into buying a crappy product for a high price. It doesn't matter if those people quoted in the article hold prestigious positions at universities. That doesn't exempt their arguments from criticism.
    You have one problem with your thinking. Every piece of history would be dismissed because its not in the present. You couldn't prove John Kennedy was shot because you don't have his body. Same with Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy. You wouldn't be able to prove they died because written records don't count, same as the Bible. Pictures can be altered. Your teacher was not exactly a critical thinker. George Washington doesn't exist, no body,
    Last edited by aboutenough; 14th November 2017 at 12:32 PM.

  10. #1620
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Actually just he opposite is happening. Your religion tries to shoe horn Jesus out of every prophecy that was made.
    That does not make sense. One shoehorns things into other things, not out of them. In any case, Jesus was not in any prophecy ever made in the first place, so no effort to remove him is needed. He could not have been the moshiach without rewriting the Torah, and no one gets to do that, much as Xians like you have tried.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    They still haven't figured out how to shoehorn him out of being born in Bethlehem.
    It is irrelevant. Many people were born in Bethlehem - or "Beit-lechem," i.e., house of bread - that were not the moshiach. In fact, all of them so far were not the moshiach.

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