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Thread: I say I'm an agnostic because I'm afraid to be an atheist.... god may get pissed!

  1. #141
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    So what? I'm pretty sure that had nothing to do with their atheism. Hitler killed more than 400,000 Jews.
    To say the truth and to lie the same time is indeed Hitleresk. Hitler murdered about 6 million Jews - 1/3 of all Jews.

    Should a person denounce their Austrian citizenship, because Hitler was Austrian? See how absurd that sounds?
    Austria has a big problem with Nazis, because lots of Austrians like to be proud on Hitler. The Austrian Jörg Haider was the first "populist" (a Nazi-like politician) in a meanwhile long row of populists (demagogues) in the most European states. Even president Donald Trump used methods of the populists to win the elections. I don't think president Donald Trump is a Nazi (this would be indeed anti-American) - but he shows how efficient the method "populism" is. The problem is to say where democracy ends and populism (fake politics) and tyranny starts.



    Last edited by zaangalewa; 12th October 2017 at 02:32 AM.

  2. #142
    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    You didn't get his post properly... he did not say "...will change his 'belief'..."

    If there ever were any verifiable evidence of a god, your belief in that moment would become evidential reality, and would no longer be a 'belief'.
    Quite often, beliefs go against evidential reality. People believe that the moon landing was faked, that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, that chem trails are real, they believe all sorts of crazy things. A rational person will change his beliefs if there is evidence that those beliefs are wrong. Not everyone is rational, in fact, most people aren't.

  3. #143
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Quite often, beliefs go against evidential reality. People believe that the moon landing was faked, that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, that chem trails are real, they believe all sorts of crazy things. A rational person will change his beliefs if there is evidence that those beliefs are wrong. Not everyone is rational, in fact, most people aren't.
    Okay. We're talking around each other, because of semantics. I believe (accept that a statement is true or that something exists) that the Earth revolves around the sun, because there is objective, observable, verifiable evidence to support that this statement is true. I do not believe (have trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something) in God, as this requires "faith" (strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.) I refuse to simply accept a thing without objective, observable, verifiable evidence.

    So, when you use the word "belief" for both the theist, and the atheist, as if the word has the same meaning for the two, then you are misapplying the word. "Belief" for the atheist is not, in any way, the same as "belief" for the theist.

  4. #144
    Established Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Quite often, beliefs go against evidential reality. People believe that the moon landing was faked, that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, that chem trails are real, they believe all sorts of crazy things. A rational person will change his beliefs if there is evidence that those beliefs are wrong. Not everyone is rational, in fact, most people aren't.
    A rational person does not have the belief that the moon landing was fake to begin with.

  5. #145
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaangalewa View Post
    To say the truth and to lie the same time is indeed Hitleresk. Hitler murdered about 6 million Jews - 1/3 of all Jews.
    I stand corrected. I remember it was a fuck-ton. It's been a few years since my last history class, so I didn't remember the exact number.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaangalewa View Post
    Austria has a big problem with Nazis, because lots of Austrians like to be proud on Hitler. The Austrian Jörg Haider was the first "populist" (a Nazi-like politician) in a meanwhile long row of populists (demagogues) in the most European states. Even president Donald Trump used methods of the populists to win the elections. I don't think president Donald Trump is a Nazi (this would be indeed anti-American) - but he shows how efficient the method "populism" is. The problem is to say where democracy ends and populism (fake politics) and tyranny starts.


    As fascinating as that little lesson in political ideology is, what the fuck does that have to do with what I said? We were talking about the stupidity of refusing to call one's self an atheist, just because a couple of icky people in the past were atheists.
    Thanks from NeoVsMatrix

  6. #146
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    I stand corrected. I remember it was a fuck-ton. It's been a few years since my last history class, so I didn't remember the exact number.
    I said not an exact number. Most experts today agree that somewhere between 5.6 and 6.3 million Jews were murdered from the Nazis. I believe they made a good job. On the other side: From the members of my families for example were 5 people murdered from the Nazis during the shoa - but only the name of one of this victims is known in Yad Vashem.

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 12th October 2017 at 11:51 PM.

  7. #147
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    See, the problem with not wanting to be associated with rational atheists, because of the atrocities committed by the likes of Stalin, or Mao, is that it demonstrates the difference between a rational atheist, and an ideologue who simply replaces one religion for another. Make no doubt both Stalin, and Mao were religious - as were Lenin, Pol Pot, and, more recently, Kim Jung Un (sp?). They just replaces theism with Statism. And statism is just another version of theism; they just replace a supernatural deity, with the deity of the State.

    Rational Atheists reject statism with equal disdain as theism. After all, the rational atheist has no need of religion, regardless of what the deity of that religion is.

  8. #148
    Drone Killer Liberal Doses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    To be hot or cold, you either have to have a positive belief in the negative (atheist) or a belief in the unproven (theist). No one knows whether there is a god or not. Therefore, being agnostic is the only honest belief.
    A belief in the unproven is faith. Were God a known fact the word "faith" would be unnecessary. The Bible recognizes this for it asks for one to have faith. Were God a undeniable, proven truth. Just who would not believe, sans a fool?

  9. #149
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    See, the problem with not wanting to be associated with rational atheists, because of the atrocities committed by the likes of Stalin, or Mao, is that it demonstrates the difference between a rational atheist, and an ideologue who simply replaces one religion for another. Make no doubt both Stalin, and Mao were religious - as were Lenin, Pol Pot, and, more recently, Kim Jung Un (sp?). They just replaces theism with Statism. And statism is just another version of theism; they just replace a supernatural deity, with the deity of the State.

    Rational Atheists reject statism with equal disdain as theism. After all, the rational atheist has no need of religion,
    Atheism is a belief. Atheists are often convinced the only allowed state religion should be atheism because in their eyes ("I believe not to believe") atheism is not a religion. This is not rational.

    regardless of what the deity of that religion is.
    Last edited by zaangalewa; 14th October 2017 at 01:50 AM.

  10. #150
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaangalewa View Post
    Atheism is a belief. Atheists are often convinced the only allowed state religion should be atheism because in their eyes ("I believe not to believe") atheism is not a religion. This is not rational.
    No, it's not. Rational theism is nothing more than a statement of position. I don't believe there is no god. I merely state my position God does not exist. I am quite open to changing that position to God exists. All I require is is observable, objective, verifiable evidence. Theists desperately want to paint atheism as a religion, so that they can feel justified in abandoning their reason in order to believe in a thing for which there is not a single shred of rational, objective, observable, verifiable evidence. I refuse to let anyone cram me into their cubbyhole, just so they can feel better about their wilful suspension of reason.

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