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Thread: I say I'm an agnostic because I'm afraid to be an atheist.... god may get pissed!

  1. #61
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    [T]here's ... a unique culture associated with [Judaism], which isn't inextricable from the religious aspect.
    Actually, it is inextricable. While certain things are just differing customs between different groups, those things that are fundamentally Jewish have the religion underlying them.

  2. #62
    Member allegoricalfact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    False. Whether one is Jewish or not is not dependent on the faith he or she holds to. One is not Jewish by mere proclamation of faith, as with most religions. One no more stops being Jewish by being an atheist any more than one becomes Jewish merely by saying so. Jewish law does not work like that.
    Says who? Only a believer - If a Jew is no longer a believer they are no longer a Jew. I have know lots of Jews who say they are no longer a Jew - what hogwash - blackmailing hogwash.

  3. #63
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Actually, it is inextricable. While certain things are just differing customs between different groups, those things that are fundamentally Jewish have the religion underlying them.
    Underlying them, perhaps. But for some (such as me) the religious aspect is carefully removed. For example, at our Passover seder, we read from a "Humanist Haggadah," which shortens the mealtime down to a comfortable 90 minutes, and focuses exclusively on history and culture, rather than divinity. Biblical events are mostly recognized as stories with deeper meanings, than as literal historical events.

  4. #64
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegoricalfact View Post
    Says who? Only a believer - If a Jew is no longer a believer they are no longer a Jew. I have know lots of Jews who say they are no longer a Jew - what hogwash - blackmailing hogwash.
    They can say and believe what they please, and I'll gladly refer to such people per their wishes. However, any competent geneticist with the proper equipment can review their haplotypes, and use it to describe their Jewish heritage.
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey

  5. #65
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegoricalfact View Post
    Says who? Only a believer.
    The concept of a "believer," in this context, is a Xian and Islamic concept. Judaism does not work that way, irrespective of your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by allegoricalfact View Post
    If a Jew is no longer a believer they are no longer a Jew.
    Again, that is how Xianity and Islam works, not Judaism.

    Quote Originally Posted by allegoricalfact View Post
    ... what hogwash - blackmailing hogwash.
    That sounds rather uncomplimentary toward Jews and Judaism....

  6. #66
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Underlying them, perhaps. But for some (such as me) the religious aspect is carefully removed.
    Yes, underlying and the source. Obviously, there are groups who excise religious references.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    For example, at our Passover seder, we read from a "Humanist Haggadah," which shortens the mealtime down to a comfortable 90 minutes, and focuses exclusively on history and culture, rather than divinity. Biblical events are mostly recognized as stories with deeper meanings, than as literal historical events.
    Orthodox seders obviously last a long time, and we enjoy them. I've usually gotten out around midnight-1am. A few go as late as 3-4am (though I have never been to one such - I have never been later than 2am, I think).

    But your statement actually illustrates the point, that religion underlies the Haggadah in its original form, and was modified later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    The concept of a "believer," in this context, is a Xian and Islamic concept. Judaism does not work that way, irrespective of your opinion.


    Again, that is how Xianity and Islam works, not Judaism.


    That sounds rather uncomplimentary toward Jews and Judaism....
    Did you realize that you always call Christians Xians, but give due respect to every other religion? What is with that level of disrespect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Absolutely. No one knows whether or not there really is a god. What's nearly certain anyway is that none of the gods humans have created over the centuries are real.

    But, even that can't be proven. Think how surprised the jihadis will be to go into the next life expecting 70 virgins only to find Thor on the throne shaking his hammer at them for being so stupid.
    I know there is a God. It has nothing to do with belief. The only people who know that I'm telling the truth (that I'm aware of) are those with a similar experience. Those people cannot prove it to your satisfaction, but they can to each other's. If you ever had the experience and you weren't drugged when it happened, you would know.

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humorme View Post
    I know there is a God. It has nothing to do with belief. The only people who know that I'm telling the truth (that I'm aware of) are those with a similar experience. Those people cannot prove it to your satisfaction, but they can to each other's. If you ever had the experience and you weren't drugged when it happened, you would know.
    How do you know? What objective evidence do you have that allows you to say so definitively that God exists?

  10. #70
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humorme View Post
    Did you realize that you always call Christians Xians, but give due respect to every other religion? What is with that level of disrespect?
    There is no disrespect involved. However, the name means people who follow the (Jewish) messiah, and Jesus was no such person.

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