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Thread: A brif History of (Christian) God

  1. #31
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    {U}nless you are willing to divorce yourself from everything in the Old Testament, then your argument fails.
    And he cannot do that, because his position depends on the Tanakh for its legitimacy - even though that (Jewish) set of works does not support his position in the end. (Or even in the beginning.)
    Thanks from Czernobog

  2. #32
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Sorry. You don't get to insist that the Old Testament is relative to your religion, and that "the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament", and then try to divorce yourself from everything that God did in the Old Testament. If you own any of it, then you own all of it.

    You've tried that argument before. It didn't work then, and it doesn't work now. So, unless you are willing to divorce yourself from everything in the Old Testament, then your argument fails.
    I have been told by our resident Jew I have no business being in the Old Testament and we don't believe in the same God. Now you are contradicting a Jew concerning their Torah and trying to force Christians into their book to make your point. You are tangled up in a false analogy.

  3. #33
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    I have been told by our resident Jew I have no business being in the Old Testament and we don't believe in the same God. Now you are contradicting a Jew concerning their Torah and trying to force Christians into their book to make your point. You are tangled up in a false analogy.
    I don't care what the "resident Jew" (Ian Jeffery) says. I am not having this debate with him. I only care about your position. Is the Old Testament relevant to Christianity, or isn't it? If it isn't, then don't ever quote the Old Testament for your religious ethical views again. If it is, then you don't get to just pick, and choose the parts that you like as relevant. You choose, I don't care either way.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 27th September 2017 at 05:43 PM.

  4. #34
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    I don't care what the "resident Jew" (Ian Jeffery) says. I am not having this debate with him. I only care about your position. Is the Old Testament relevant to Christianity, or isn't it? If it isn't, then don't ever quote the Old Testament for your religious ethical views again. If it is, then you don't get to just pick, and choose the parts that you like as relevant. You choose, I don't care either way.
    I agree with Ian that the Old Testament or the Torah and Tanakh is primarily are Jewish religious books containing their laws, prophecies, songs and wisdom. The reason Christians include those books in their bible is because we believe in the same God and believe the prophecies spoken of by the prophets concerning the Messiah are true. Christians do not go by Jewish laws like the Jews do, but we are influenced by the morals spoken of in those laws. If you are trying to nail down Christians only by Gods actions, you have to nail down Jews to. Your whole idea is based on false assumptions, but I realize its just a game you play to hate on Christians. Feel sorry for this failed thread. May it rest in pieces

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    I agree with Ian that the Old Testament or the Torah and Tanakh is primarily are Jewish religious books containing their laws, prophecies, songs and wisdom. The reason Christians include those books in their bible is because we believe in the same God and believe the prophecies spoken of by the prophets concerning the Messiah are true. Christians do not go by Jewish laws like the Jews do, but we are influenced by the morals spoken of in those laws. If you are trying to nail down Christians only by Gods actions, you have to nail down Jews to. Your whole idea is based on false assumptions, but I realize its just a game you play to hate on Christians. Feel sorry for this failed thread. May it rest in pieces
    That statement right there, means that you accept that it is your God that did all of those things you keep trying to divorce yourself from. And I have nailed the Jews down. See, here is the difference between you, and the resident Jew. You have this code of "Do unto others, blah, blah, blah," So your religion's ethics does not make room for choosing to commit retributive genocide.

    Jews on the other hand still operate under the "Eye for an eye" thing. So, if an enemy is threatening them with genocide, they are perfectly justified, within the confines of their laws, to repay that enemy in kind, as is God under their ethos. You do not have that same justification available to you. so, you have to find a way to reconcile a God of Genocide with your message of peace, love, and forgiveness. And simply trying to divorce yourself from the genocide doesn't work, so long as you lay claim to the same God.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 27th September 2017 at 07:24 PM.

  6. #36
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Jews ... operate under the "Eye for an eye" thing. So, if an enemy is threatening them with genocide, they are perfectly justified, within the confines of their laws, to repay that enemy in kind, as is G-d under their ethos.
    That is not what "eye for an eye" means, or how it works. It is a measure of civil damages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_for_an_eye#Judaism

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    Throbbing Member Missle Command Champion johnflesh's Avatar
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    I yelled to God: You do not exist! God did not respond.
    I yelled at God: You do not exist! God did not respond.
    I yelled at my neighbor: God does not exist! My neighbor did not respond.
    I yelled at the city center: God does not exist! Nobody responded.
    I yelled to anyone who would lend so much as moment that God does not exist. And they do not respond.

    It is clear to me that those who believe in God are crazy.

  8. #38
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    That is not what "eye for an eye" means, or how it works. It is a measure of civil damages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_for_an_eye#Judaism
    I wasn't trying to offend Ian. I was just simplifying the Judaic ethos of retributive justice to it's simplest form. The point is that God, by Judaic ethos, repaying attempted genocide with a command of retributive genocide is perfectly within bounds. For Christians, not so much, which is why I submit they have a harder time justifying willingly worshipping a God that would order genocide.

  9. #39
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnflesh View Post
    I yelled to God: You do not exist! God did not respond.
    I yelled at God: You do not exist! God did not respond.
    I yelled at my neighbor: God does not exist! My neighbor did not respond.
    I yelled at the city center: God does not exist! Nobody responded.
    I yelled to anyone who would lend so much as moment that God does not exist. And they do not respond.

    It is clear to me that those who believe in God are crazy.
    Thing is that's not entirely true. Likely your neighbour would, ironically, be more likely to yell back in defence of this silent God, than God would. The same is true of any other group of people - particularly religious people.

  10. #40
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    The point is that G-d, by Judaic ethos, repaying attempted genocide with a command of retributive genocide is perfectly within bounds.
    Of course, G-d can do anything.* However, such a decision is outside the bounds of what humans may decide - i.e., of Jewish law.

    * Let's not get started on the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object, though, or G-d making a rock He cannot lift?

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