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Thread: Random thoughts about religion

  1. #61
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No, because he is not obligated. On the other hand...
    That perception works for Judaism. The Jewish perception of God is one of...a clock maker, or an engineer. I made this clock, and I expect it to work as I designed it to, or I will just destroy it, and make another. However, keep in mind that this thread is about the Christian God. Christians have a very different perspective of God. You see the Christian understanding of God is more personal, like a parent. They are constantly talking about the "relationship" with God, and referring to everyone as the "Children of God" So, their version of God actually would be obligated. After all, a parent is obligated to do everything in their power to protect their children from harm. This isn't to say that God, as a parent/guardian deity, is responsible for protecting his children from the evil that others do. However, natural threats one would expect God to protect from, as a parent would protect a child.

  2. #62
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    That perception works for Judaism. The Jewish perception of G-d is one of...a clock maker, or an engineer. I made this clock, and I expect it to work as I designed it to, or I will just destroy it, and make another.
    Well, not quite. G-d made a covenant with mankind (after the Flood) not to destroy mankind again. Furthermore, the Jewish G-d is actively involved in the world, and is not a deist G-d that established the world, then sat back and let it run, which is what your statement implies (though it is not clear to me that you intended such).

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    However, keep in mind that this thread is about the Christian G-d.
    I understand. I was merely responding to Isalexi's question, which was directed at me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Christians have a very different perspective of G-d.
    To say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    You see the Christian understanding of G-d is more personal, like a parent. They are constantly talking about the "relationship" with G-d, and referring to everyone as the "Children of G-d" So, their version of G-d actually would be obligated.
    This understanding is not all that different from the Jewish one - as far as it goes. (I.e., there are other, more significant differences.) But this would not make G-d obligated. In fact, G-d has no obligations, because they would have to be imposed from without, and there is no higher source than G-d Himself. That is to say, no one can obligate G-d. The only areas in which G-d would have an "obligation" (which is not really what it is) would be where G-d has said He would do something; but that is not an obligation, but rather the logical conclusion that G-d is not a liar and would not say one thing and do another (which is explicitly stated in the Torah).

    In the Jewish version, of course, this "parental relationship" is an analogy, and not identical to such a relationship.

    This is not to say the Xian understanding of G-d, as distinct from the Jewish one in other ways, would not have an obligation of some kind. But if so, it would not be on account of the "parent" and "relationship" aspect of that understanding. (Except, perhaps, where those understandings themselves may differ.)

  3. #63
    Senior Member Loki's Avatar
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    Jesus died for our sins
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    Catchy slogan. Neither is true.

  4. #64
    Telecastin' Blues63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    You're cherry-picking a literalist definition of 'religion'; most scientists are not atheistic materialists, particularly not those of any notable theories or accomplishment.
    Citation please, as I know many atheist scientists and few religious. You can cite examples from previous centuries to support your claim but I doubt the contemporary scientific community is so stacked.

    Materialistic atheists have very little representation in science, only in radical philosophies such as Marx, de Sade, etc.
    Absolute nonsense and highly partisan. Your obsession with Marxism and Libertine philosophies has you seeing it everywhere. Your perception is skewed owing to this.

    Materialism doesn't lend itself to creativity or discovery, just utilitarian survivalism as in a Soviet dictatorship - which is also likely why no state atheist governments such as Soviet Russia or Maoist China had any significant scientific accomplishments.
    Incorrect, you are conflating political ideologies with the scientific method.

    That's quite an distortion, and you're only refering to whether or not their beliefs coincided with the state church - that has no bearing on whether their ideology was atheistic or materialistic.
    And you cannot prove your hypothesis either.

    He was not an atheist or materialist.
    No, he personally identified as an agnostic.

    "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously."

    "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even na´ve."

    "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends…. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."

    "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

    "In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests."

    "I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere."

    Einstein was a secular humanist. When you claim Einstein was NOT a materialist are you referring to ontological materialism?
    Last edited by Blues63; 8th October 2017 at 03:17 PM.

  5. #65
    RNG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    That perception works for Judaism. The Jewish perception of God is one of...a clock maker, or an engineer. I made this clock, and I expect it to work as I designed it to, or I will just destroy it, and make another. However, keep in mind that this thread is about the Christian God. Christians have a very different perspective of God. You see the Christian understanding of God is more personal, like a parent. They are constantly talking about the "relationship" with God, and referring to everyone as the "Children of God" So, their version of God actually would be obligated. After all, a parent is obligated to do everything in their power to protect their children from harm. This isn't to say that God, as a parent/guardian deity, is responsible for protecting his children from the evil that others do. However, natural threats one would expect God to protect from, as a parent would protect a child.
    I thought this thread is about random thoughts on religion. I thought it wasn't limited to the god of the bible.

  6. #66
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RNG View Post
    I thought this thread is about random thoughts on religion. I thought it wasn't limited to the god of the bible.
    His OP is specific to a particular religion, however.

  7. #67
    Nuisance Factor Yeti 8 Jungle Swing Champion, YetiSports 4 - Albatross Overload Champion, YetiSports7 - Snowboard FreeRide Champion, Alu`s Revenge Champion boontito's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that the majority of Americans claim to be Christian, act agnostic, but look like Buddha.

    Thanks from Paris and Ian Jeffrey

  8. #68
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RNG View Post
    I thought this thread is about random thoughts on religion. I thought it wasn't limited to the god of the bible.
    Well, it is, but I was responding to a point brought up by Ian.

  9. #69
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Bears repeating:


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