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Thread: Being an atheist takes guts.

  1. #41
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    You do know atheism is a religion, right?
    No, it is not, and that is not what the court said in your link. It requires some comprehension of legal nuance to understand what the court did say.

    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    It gets even better than that. "Some" (ok mostly Democrats) seem to feel Christians should no longer be able to hold political positions within the federal government.
    For some reason, I could not get the link for this one to work.
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  2. #42
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    You do know atheism is a religion, right?

    Atheists Score Major Win In Federal Court

    It gets even better than that. "Some" (ok mostly Democrats) seem to feel Christians should no longer be able to hold political positions within the federal government.

    Bernie Sanders Says Christians Need Not Apply for Public Office
    A stunning, anti-Christian stance taken by Democrats.
    You know that atheism and secular humanism are two different things, right? To say that because "Secular Humanism is a religion, atheism is a religion" is like saying "Because Jamaicans are black, all blacks re Jamaicans". It doesn't actually work that way.

    And, more importantly, I think you are intelligent enough to know it doesn't work that way. Which would suggest that you posted this for no other reason than to troll.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    You know that atheism and secular humanism are two different things, right? To say that because "Secular Humanism is a religion, atheism is a religion" is like saying "Because Jamaicans are black, all blacks re Jamaicans". It doesn't actually work that way.

    And, more importantly, I think you are intelligent enough to know it doesn't work that way. Which would suggest that you posted this for no other reason than to troll.
    Been on my ignore list for a very long time. Just saying.

  4. #44
    Member fenrir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No, it is not, and that is not what the court said in your link. It requires some comprehension of legal nuance to understand what the court did say.
    You'll need to take that up with the article's author.

    A federal district court in Oregon has declared Secular Humanism a religion, paving the way for the non-theistic community to obtain the same legal rights as groups such as Christianity...

    For some reason, I could not get the link for this one to work.
    That's because your computer hates you. Here, try this one. Be careful tho. It's a Catholic publication. I'd hate it if you burst into flames.

    Bernie Sanders Says Christians Need Not Apply for Public Office | ncregister.com

  5. #45
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    Nice, try. The league of Militant Godless never did anything more than protest group, and Stalin was never a member. In fact, it was Stalin that disbanded the League of Militant Godless.

    An answer to this report was found when Nazi Germany invaded in 1941. Churches were re-opened under the German occupation, while believers flocked to them in the millions. In order to gain support for the war effort (both domestic and foreign), Stalin ended the antireligious persecution[59][60] and the LMG was disbanded

    Oops. So, while he was an Atheist, he fought against religious persecution. Picture that.

    So, get back to us when you find someone who committed the atrocities of the Crusades, and the Inquisition in the name of atheism. In the meantime, feel free to go troll elsewhere.

  6. #46
    Member fenrir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    You know that atheism and secular humanism are two different things, right? To say that because "Secular Humanism is a religion, atheism is a religion" is like saying "Because Jamaicans are black, all blacks re Jamaicans". It doesn't actually work that way.

    And, more importantly, I think you are intelligent enough to know it doesn't work that way. Which would suggest that you posted this for no other reason than to troll.
    Well, yes and no. There are a number of different philosophical thoughts on this subject.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-atheism-deism

    ...Not many people nowadays identify with deism. In fact it is almost universally scorned: as a timid compromise, for those who can no longer believe in religion but are not quite ready to take leave of God. Atheists of course see themselves as going a daring step further. To Christians, it is a diluted form of Christianity emptied of crucial concepts such as revelation, grace and sin.

    I suggest that both the atheist and the Christian should be a bit less scornful, and see how deeply they are indebted to this huge intellectual movement.

    Atheism is less distinct from deism than it thinks. It inherits the semi-Christian assumptions of this creed.

    Atheism derives from religion? Surely it just says that no gods exist, that rationalism, or 'scientific naturalism', is to be preferred to any form of supernaturalism. Actually, no: in reality what we call atheism is a form of secular humanism; it presupposes a moral vision, of progressive humanitarianism, of trust that universal moral values will triumph. (Of course there is also the atheism of Nietzsche, which rejects humanism, but this is not what is normally meant by 'atheism').

    So what we know as atheism should really be understood as an offshoot of deism. For it sees rationalism as a benign force that can liberate our natural goodness. It has a vision of rationalism saving us, uniting us. For example, AC Grayling, in his recent book The God Argument: The Case Against Religion and for Humanism, argues that, with the withering of religion, 'an ethical outlook which can serve everyone everywhere, and can bring the world together into a single moral community, will at last be possible'. This is really Rousseau's idea, that if we all listened to our hearts, there would be 'one religion on earth'.

    On one hand atheism is more coherent than deism it neatly eliminates the supernatural. But on the other hand it has less self-knowledge: it does not understand that it remains fuelled by a religious-based vision of human flourishing...

  7. #47
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    ... On one hand atheism is more coherent than deism – it neatly eliminates the supernatural. But on the other hand it has less self-knowledge: it does not understand that it remains fuelled by a religious-based vision of human flourishing...
    What makes this vision "religious-based?"
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  8. #48
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    Well, yes and no. There are a number of different philosophical thoughts on this subject.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-atheism-deism

    ...Not many people nowadays identify with deism. In fact it is almost universally scorned: as a timid compromise, for those who can no longer believe in religion but are not quite ready to take leave of God. Atheists of course see themselves as going a daring step further. To Christians, it is a diluted form of Christianity emptied of crucial concepts such as revelation, grace and sin.

    I suggest that both the atheist and the Christian should be a bit less scornful, and see how deeply they are indebted to this huge intellectual movement.

    Atheism is less distinct from deism than it thinks. It inherits the semi-Christian assumptions of this creed.

    Atheism derives from religion? Surely it just says that no gods exist, that rationalism, or 'scientific naturalism', is to be preferred to any form of supernaturalism. Actually, no: in reality what we call atheism is a form of secular humanism; it presupposes a moral vision, of progressive humanitarianism, of trust that universal moral values will triumph. (Of course there is also the atheism of Nietzsche, which rejects humanism, but this is not what is normally meant by 'atheism').

    So what we know as atheism should really be understood as an offshoot of deism. For it sees rationalism as a benign force that can liberate our natural goodness. It has a vision of rationalism saving us, uniting us. For example, AC Grayling, in his recent book The God Argument: The Case Against Religion and for Humanism, argues that, with the withering of religion, 'an ethical outlook which can serve everyone everywhere, and can bring the world together into a single moral community, will at last be possible'. This is really Rousseau's idea, that if we all listened to our hearts, there would be 'one religion on earth'.

    On one hand atheism is more coherent than deism it neatly eliminates the supernatural. But on the other hand it has less self-knowledge: it does not understand that it remains fuelled by a religious-based vision of human flourishing...
    Except it doesn't. Rational atheism is fuelled by nothing more than an expectation of evidence. I do not dogmatically insist that God does not exist. I am more than willing to change my position to God exists. All I need is objective, empirical, quantifiable, verifiable evidence. That is not a religious position. It is a position of reason. Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sexual position.

  9. #49
    Member fenrir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Nice, try. The league of Militant Godless never did anything more than protest group, and Stalin was never a member. In fact, it was Stalin that disbanded the League of Militant Godless.

    An answer to this report was found when Nazi Germany invaded in 1941. Churches were re-opened under the German occupation, while believers flocked to them in the millions. In order to gain support for the war effort (both domestic and foreign), Stalin ended the antireligious persecution[59][60] and the LMG was disbanded

    Oops. So, while he was an Atheist, he fought against religious persecution. Picture that.

    So, get back to us when you find someone who committed the atrocities of the Crusades, and the Inquisition in the name of atheism. In the meantime, feel free to go troll elsewhere.
    Yeah, that would be wrong. Yes, Officially the Soviet Union allowed Christianity. Unofficially, it did everything it could do to end the practice. This bears more than a little semblance to Hitler's plans for Christianity after the war, controlling and then eliminating it through time.

    Face it, atheists are intolerant of Christianity now and in the past. It's exactly what I would expect from the greatest mass murderers in the 20th century.

    ...Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Communist Party. However, "the Soviet law and administrative practice through most of the 1920s extended some tolerance to religion and forbade the arbitrary closing or destruction of some functioning churches",[22] and each successive Soviet constitution granted freedom of belief. As the founder of the Soviet state, Lenin, put it:

    Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.[10]

    Marxism-Leninism advocates the suppression and ultimately the disappearance of religious beliefs, considering them to be "unscientific" and "superstitious". In the 1920s and 1930s, such organizations as the League of the Militant Godless were active in anti-religious propaganda. Atheism was the norm in schools, communist organizations (such as the Young Pioneer Organization), and the media.

    The regime's efforts to eradicate religion in the Soviet Union, however, varied over the years with respect to particular religions and were affected by higher state interests. In 1923, a New York Times correspondent saw Christians observing Easter peacefully in Moscow despite violent anti-religious actions in previous years.[23] Official policies and practices not only varied with time, but also differed in their application from one nationality to another and from one religion to another.

    In 1929, with the onset of the Cultural Revolution in the Soviet Union and an upsurge of radical militancy in the Party and Komsomol, a powerful "hard line" in favor of mass closing of churches and arrests of priests became dominant and evidently won Stalin's approval. Secret "hard line" instructions were issued to local party organizations, but not published. When the anti-religious drive inflamed the anger of the rural population, not to mention that of the Pope and other Western church spokesmen, the regime was able to back off from a policy that it had never publicly endorsed anyway.[24][25]

    Although all Soviet leaders had the same long-range goal of developing a cohesive Soviet people, they pursued different policies to achieve it. For the Soviet regime, questions of nationality and religion were always closely linked. Therefore, their attitude toward religion also varied from a total ban on some religions to official support of others...

  10. #50
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    Yeah, that would be wrong. Yes, Officially the Soviet Union allowed Christianity. Unofficially, it did everything it could do to end the practice. This bears more than a little semblance to Hitler's plans for Christianity after the war, controlling and then eliminating it through time.

    Face it, atheists are intolerant of Christianity now and in the past. It's exactly what I would expect from the greatest mass murderers in the 20th century.
    Your claim was that Stalin killed all of the people he killed in the name of atheism. Then you tried to "prove your point" by referencing a group that Stalin was never a part of, and Stalin disbanded as your "proof".

    Why do you keep digging your hole deeper? Just admit that you were mistaken, and move on. I never claimed that atheists were tolerant of Christians. I claim that none of the 18 million people that Stalin had killed were in service to atheism, but in service to power, and control. You want to pretend that because one guy who killed a bunch of people in order to solidify his political position happened to be atheist, then this is evidence that atheism is "bad".

    Torquemada was personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of people during the Inquisitions. I assume, by your logic, you would agree that one individual, all my himself, makes Christianity "bad"?
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