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Thread: The "problem of evil" debunked

  1. #11
    Established Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    The problem of evil is one of the dumbest arguments I've heard atheists make (even if one's an atheist, they should stop using it because of how bad it is). Here's why:

    -Things can only be "bad or evil" if one's admitting that an objective standard of "good" exists (e.x. a God or higher power).

    If the material world is all that exists, then "good or evil" are just mental/social constructs and mean nothing. A person dying isn't "evil" or "good", it just is what it is, "good and evil" don't exist anywhere in the empirical world.

    You can have the "opinion" that a person harming another innocent person is doing "evil", but that's just your opinion, and if the person doing the harm receives pleasure from it, then from their POV, there's nothing "objectively" evil about it.

    ---

    In other words, using the "problem of evil" argument is admitting there is some "God or higher power" which determines objective good and evil to begin with.

    Which would only make sense under some obscure theologies or philosophies (e.x. such as Gnosticism, in which the creator of the material world was a bad or incompetent creator, and a second "perfect" God existed in a higher plane of reality).
    'good' and 'evil' are philosophical concepts, that have found common definition in modern society, and therefore can very well be discussed, used and used as argument without any need for a deity or higher power.

    An animal killing for food, is not 'evil', or bad. You going and killing someone because you want his car, jewelry, wife or whatever, is you acting out of bad intentions, as per the socially conform definition and differentiation between good and bad/evil.

    This concept, does NOT require your or anyone else's god to exist.

    And if you want to get rid of that concept as well.. then all you've left is pretty much the categorical imperative from Kant, as the ultimate rule to live by.
    that one does not even consider good and evil.


  2. #12
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    And if you want to get rid of that concept as well.. then all you've left is pretty much the categorical imperative from Kant, as the ultimate rule to live by.
    Prompting the response: Surely you Kant be serious! (Or perhaps spelled "Shirley, you Kant be Sirius!")
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  3. #13
    quichierbichen
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    The problem of evil is one of the dumbest arguments I've heard atheists make (even if one's an atheist, they should stop using it because of how bad it is). Here's why:

    -Things can only be "bad or evil" if one's admitting that an objective standard of "good" exists (e.x. a God or higher power).

    If the material world is all that exists, then "good or evil" are just mental/social constructs and mean nothing. A person dying isn't "evil" or "good", it just is what it is, "good and evil" don't exist anywhere in the empirical world.

    You can have the "opinion" that a person harming another innocent person is doing "evil", but that's just your opinion, and if the person doing the harm receives pleasure from it, then from their POV, there's nothing "objectively" evil about it.

    ---

    In other words, using the "problem of evil" argument is admitting there is some "God or higher power" which determines objective good and evil to begin with.

    Which would only make sense under some obscure theologies or philosophies (e.x. such as Gnosticism, in which the creator of the material world was a bad or incompetent creator, and a second "perfect" God existed in a higher plane of reality).
    Your argument goes wrong in its basic premise. You're saying we can't define good or evil without recourse to a higher power. That's hardly true. Notions of good and evil are widely accepted throughout the world, with large elements of intersection between all philosophies, both theistic and non-theistic. The Golden Rule, for example, is articulated in one way or another in just about every religion--and it doesn't depend on a higher power dictating the rules.

    There's evidence for basic moral ideas in children too young to understand anything about a higher power.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    'good' and 'evil' are philosophical concepts, that have found common definition in modern society, and therefore can very well be discussed, used and used as argument without any need for a deity or higher power.

    An animal killing for food, is not 'evil', or bad. You going and killing someone because you want his car, jewelry, wife or whatever, is you acting out of bad intentions, as per the socially conform definition and differentiation between good and bad/evil.

    This concept, does NOT require your or anyone else's god to exist.

    And if you want to get rid of that concept as well.. then all you've left is pretty much the categorical imperative from Kant, as the ultimate rule to live by.
    that one does not even consider good and evil.

    So...did Kant look fat in those pants?
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  5. #15
    No mercy for losers Addiction Solitaire Champion, Double Deuce Champion, Queen Jewels Champion, Ray Ray Shuffle Champion, Twins Champion, Blow Up: Arcade Champion, Bunch - Time Trial Champion, Znax Champion, Zoo Keeper Champion, Sobics School Champion, Swap a Smiley Champion, Makos Champion, Dino Drop Champion, Flower Frenzy Champion, Some Puzzle Champion, Funny Bubbles Champion, CubeZ Champion, Dinky Smash Champion, Fun Fun Animals Champion, Fruit Fabriek Champion, Raft Wars Champion, Rainbow Monkey RunDown Champion, Raft Wars Champion, Crime Puzzle Champion Blueneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    The problem of evil is one of the dumbest arguments I've heard atheists make (even if one's an atheist, they should stop using it because of how bad it is). Here's why:

    -Things can only be "bad or evil" if one's admitting that an objective standard of "good" exists (e.x. a God or higher power).

    If the material world is all that exists, then "good or evil" are just mental/social constructs and mean nothing. A person dying isn't "evil" or "good", it just is what it is, "good and evil" don't exist anywhere in the empirical world.

    You can have the "opinion" that a person harming another innocent person is doing "evil", but that's just your opinion, and if the person doing the harm receives pleasure from it, then from their POV, there's nothing "objectively" evil about it.

    ---

    In other words, using the "problem of evil" argument is admitting there is some "God or higher power" which determines objective good and evil to begin with.

    Which would only make sense under some obscure theologies or philosophies (e.x. such as Gnosticism, in which the creator of the material world was a bad or incompetent creator, and a second "perfect" God existed in a higher plane of reality).
    I missed the part where atheists use the term "the problem of evil" to justify atheism.

  6. #16
    Telecastin' Blues63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    The problem of evil is one of the dumbest arguments I've heard atheists make (even if one's an atheist, they should stop using it because of how bad it is).
    Atheists don't make that argument

    Here's why:

    -Things can only be "bad or evil" if one's admitting that an objective standard of "good" exists (e.x. a God or higher power).
    Not necessarily, as it depends on the mores of a given society. What one considers evil someone else may not, e.g. Spartans though paedophilia was normal.

    If the material world is all that exists, then "good or evil" are just mental/social constructs and mean nothing.
    They are social constructs, but that doesn't mean they don't mean anything.

    A person dying isn't "evil" or "good", it just is what it is, "good and evil" don't exist anywhere in the empirical world.
    The example doesn't support your case.

    You can have the "opinion" that a person harming another innocent person is doing "evil", but that's just your opinion, and if the person doing the harm receives pleasure from it, then from their POV, there's nothing "objectively" evil about it.
    Oh shit, you're back to the deSade nonsense. Atheism and the Libertine philosophy aren't related and it is somewhat dishonest of you to try and conflate the two.


    In other words, using the "problem of evil" argument is admitting there is some "God or higher power" which determines objective good and evil to begin with.
    That does not follow.

    Which would only make sense under some obscure theologies or philosophies (e.x. such as Gnosticism, in which the creator of the material world was a bad or incompetent creator, and a second "perfect" God existed in a higher plane of reality).
    None of your post makes sense.
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  7. #17
    Telecastin' Blues63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Sampson Simpson View Post
    I think the point is athiests are stupid poopyheads
    No, the point is that atheists are Libertines-a disgusting philosophy that died long ago and never had any merit in the first place. The OP is constantly attacking atheists with specious arguments that are nothing more the ad hominem attacks. His logic is unsound and his attempts to conflate Secular Humanism & Libertine philosophy with Atheism are dishonest.

  8. #18
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    "Good" and "evil" are determined by a society. Without a society (at least two individuals) it is impossible to be "good" or "evil."

    The qualifiers of "good" and "evil" are typically assigned to actions that have been determined to respectively benefit or harm the society. The problem is that societies gradually change, and religion codifies the rules, so that the social rules that applied thousands of years ago are shoehorned into modern society.
    Last edited by Djinn; 2nd November 2017 at 12:55 PM.
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  9. #19
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Man... This thread reminds me of a pack of hungry lions attacking a mouse.

  10. #20
    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    'good' and 'evil' are philosophical concepts, that have found common definition in modern society, and therefore can very well be discussed, used and used as argument without any need for a deity or higher power.

    An animal killing for food, is not 'evil', or bad. You going and killing someone because you want his car, jewelry, wife or whatever, is you acting out of bad intentions, as per the socially conform definition and differentiation between good and bad/evil.

    This concept, does NOT require your or anyone else's god to exist.

    And if you want to get rid of that concept as well.. then all you've left is pretty much the categorical imperative from Kant, as the ultimate rule to live by.
    that one does not even consider good and evil.
    I'll see your German and raise you a Frenchman:


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