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Thread: What do atheists think of deists?

  1. #31
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    Why would you assume that a deist would be a creationist? You seem to be incapable of imagining a god concept that isn't derived from Judeo-Christian mythology.
    You presume that creationism is a specifically Christian concept. You do get that, literally, every religion, and theology has a creation story, right?

  2. #32
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    You presume that creationism is a specifically Christian concept. You do get that, literally, every religion, and theology has a creation story, right?
    Yes, I know that, but you keep referring to Christian mythology yourself. I know. Most people here are at least nominally Christian, but there are literally thousands of other religions out there.

  3. #33
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    Yes, I know that, but you keep referring to Christian mythology yourself. I know. Most people here are at least nominally Christian, but there are literally thousands of other religions out there.
    Nothing in my post about deists referred to the Christian mythology.

    "Deists are just one step short of theists. They still ascribe the formation of the universe to a supernatural entity for which there is no evidence."

    Where, in that, do I even mention Christianity? Do Deists believe that the world was created by "God"? Yes. Do they believe that this "God" is part of the natural universe? No. Therefore, they ascribe the creation of the universe to a supernatural entity.

    I think you just expect my responses to be directed to Christians, so no matter what I post, you think I a talking about Christianity.

  4. #34
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Nothing in my post about deists referred to the Christian mythology.

    "Deists are just one step short of theists. They still ascribe the formation of the universe to a supernatural entity for which there is no evidence."

    Where, in that, do I even mention Christianity? Do Deists believe that the world was created by "God"? Yes. Do they believe that this "God" is part of the natural universe? No. Therefore, they ascribe the creation of the universe to a supernatural entity.

    I think you just expect my responses to be directed to Christians, so no matter what I post, you think I a talking about Christianity.
    I don't think that you get to decide what deists believe.
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  5. #35
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    I don't think that you get to decide what deists believe.
    So deists don't believe that a supernatural superior being created the universe? Care to support that? In fact, I'll tell you what. How about I just prove that my assessment is correct:
    God is viewed as merely the “first cause” and underlying principle of rationality in the universe. Deists believe in a god of nature -- a noninterventionist creator -- who permits the universe to run itself according to natural laws. Like a “clockmaker god” initiating the cosmic process, the universe moves forward, without needing God’s supervision.

    So, according to deism, God is the "First Cause" for the creation of the universe. Hmm...my claim is that they believe that a supernatural entity created (is the cause of) the universe.

    Yeah...it doesn't look like I decided what deists believe. Looks like they decided that is what they believe. I mean, I suppose that one could argue that there is nothing in that description about God being "supernatural. However, whenever the question of objective evidence supporting the existence of the "First Cause" is brought up, their response is that no such evidence is possible, because the First Cause exists "outside of nature". I don't know about you, but I was always taught that anything "outside of nature" is, by definition, supernatural.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 8th November 2017 at 09:56 AM.

  6. #36
    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    So deists don't believe that a supernatural superior being created the universe?
    First of all, you keep talking like "Deists" are some kind of religion that exists in the current day, like Unitarians or Presbyterians. It was never a religion. It was at most a philosophical position that doesn't rule out a reason for a first cause (a creator). Today it would align mostly with agnosticism—people who do not know if there is a creator or not, and having no proof either way, don't summarily insist that there is not. There is no dogma of "what deists believed". There was never a congregation of deists, and not only that, but most of the people we identify today as "deists" never identified themselves that way. It's just a category that people have mostly been associated with after the fact, based on their writings.

    If someone tells you they are a "Deist" they just thought it sounded cool. It's like if someone tells you they are a Taoist. Neither person could tell you more than 3 sentences about what it means to be either of those things, because they just want to sound deep and mysterious.

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    Veteran Member Dr Sampson Simpson's Avatar
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    Why would athiest look down on diests? One reason and one reason only, they can't shut the hell up about it and throw it in everybody's face

  8. #38
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    So deists don't believe that a supernatural superior being created the universe? Care to support that? In fact, I'll tell you what. How about I just prove that my assessment is correct:
    God is viewed as merely the “first cause” and underlying principle of rationality in the universe. Deists believe in a god of nature -- a noninterventionist creator -- who permits the universe to run itself according to natural laws. Like a “clockmaker god” initiating the cosmic process, the universe moves forward, without needing God’s supervision.

    So, according to deism, God is the "First Cause" for the creation of the universe. Hmm...my claim is that they believe that a supernatural entity created (is the cause of) the universe.

    Yeah...it doesn't look like I decided what deists believe. Looks like they decided that is what they believe. I mean, I suppose that one could argue that there is nothing in that description about God being "supernatural. However, whenever the question of objective evidence supporting the existence of the "First Cause" is brought up, their response is that no such evidence is possible, because the First Cause exists "outside of nature". I don't know about you, but I was always taught that anything "outside of nature" is, by definition, supernatural.
    I believe in neither the supernatural nor a "first cause".

  9. #39
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanStill View Post
    First of all, you keep talking like "Deists" are some kind of religion that exists in the current day, like Unitarians or Presbyterians. It was never a religion. It was at most a philosophical position that doesn't rule out a reason for a first cause (a creator).
    Not unlike so many who insist that "Atheism" is a doctrinal religion. Irrational and inaccurate.

  10. #40
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    I believe in neither the supernatural nor a "first cause".
    So your concept of deity is...?

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