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Thread: The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world.

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world.

    I have been challenged several times to demonstrate how Christianity harms society, presumably because the person challenging me thinks that it doesn't. So, this will be the first of numerous discussions demonstrating exactly how Christianity harms society. Now, I am certain that any of a number of theists, and apologists will be tempted to respond with, "Well, but atheism..." fill in the blank. Don't. Resist that temptation. I'm sure that whatever you are about to say about atheism is earth-shattering, profound, and brilliantly insightful. So, by all means, go open a discussion thread with that thought. In the meantime this discussion is about Christians, and their affect on society. Let's do stay on topic. Now, on with the show...

    The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world. Now, this is not to say that the bible does not have any good ideas - Do not murder, Do not steal, for example. However, when you consider all of the rules, and regulations in the Bible as a whole, you discover vagueness, contradictions, absurdities, immorality idolized and morality demonized. Now, I'm sure that there are going to be Christians who swear this isn't true. Allow me to illustrate. According to the rules, as written in Deuteronomy, if you go to war and take women captive, you can marry them after shaving their head and living with them for a month. But, once you have, you can't sell them as slaves to anyone else. Who the fuck needs to even be told not to sell their wife as a fucking slave?!?! The people who wrote the Bible, apparently. Also, according to Deuteronomy, if you have a disobedient son, you can take him to the middle of town, and everyone can have a rock throwing party. Now, Christians will say, "Oh! But we don't do that any more," No, but it makes the abuse that you do deliver seem mild by comparison. "Hey, all I do is beat my kid with a belt, at least I'm not stoning him like we used to do..."

    According to 1st Corinthians, a woman should sit down, shut up, and submit to their husbands. Now, again, Christians will insist, "Why yes, a wife should be obedient to her husband," Uh...I won't touch that one. I'll let your own wives deal with you on that score. However, I will point out that the Bible didn't just say "be obedient," Nooo. It, specifically, says submit The word "submit" actually means to give over or yield to the power or authority of another. You know who else is expected to "submit"? Servants and slaves. That's right. The Bible specifically relegates wives to the position of servants, and slaves. Oh! And speaking of slaves, the Bible specifically endorses slavery in both the Old, and the New Testament. And this from a people who wrote an entire book about their shitty time as a race of slaves!!! Wrap your head around that one. So, how about we dispense, Christians, with any protestations about the morality advocated in the Bible.

    But it gets better! Compounding the problem, the determining factor of whether or not you're forgiven or punished for violating these vague, contradictory, absurd rules is whether or not you believe in a story. Again, Christians are going to say, "That's not how it works! You have to accept him as Lord and Saviour!" And how do we know that he is "Lord and Saviour"? Oh. That's right. That story. So, you have to believe in a story. Okay...okay. You have to believe in a story, and say the magic words demonstrating that you believe in the story.

    Here's why that's bad. Imagine if you were trying to control a class of 6 year old children and you gave them an arbitrary set of conflicting, vague rules and told them that the only way to escape punishment for breaking the rules is to believe in a story. What would happen? Chaos would break out.

    Children raised their entire lives on vague, arbitrary rules reinforced by fantasy stories of magic, and mythology grow up into adults with a warped sense of reality. They often feel guilty for doing innocent, natural things, believe they deserve to go to Hell, believe in magical spirits and powers, distrust science, fear pleasure and celebrate subjugation of self. These are not the habits of an enlightened society. They're irrational, and they contradict reality. If you live your life according to beliefs that contradict reality you're going to have a bad time.

    Also, some of those kids believing in archaic, haphazard rules are going to grow up to be politicians, and they are going to try to laws based on those beliefs, which will in turn be draconian, archaic, and haphazard.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 19th November 2017 at 10:18 PM.
    Thanks from Friday13 and MaryAnne

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    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Deuteronomy is the OT which we no longer follow.

    As for submission you, not surprisingly, haven't the faintest idea of what that is about.

    She is supposed to submit to the husband, and only him as he submits to God. She does not bow down before all men and its certainly no indication of her worth.

    She may very well be better suited to lead but its about putting faith in God and not ourselves.

    This also doesn't mean she is a slave to the man, he can't order her to do anything he wants, he needs to follow god and be a true and loving husband and someone she wants to follow.

    That combined with their faith in God, and following His Word, will benefit them both.

    As for slavery Jesus spoke on this many times.

    He used it as a demonstration of the relationship between servant and master and equated it to how Christians should understand this relationship. He even went so far as to compare God at one point to a slave master.

    People back then could make this connection far easier than we can today.

    So by Jesus condemning it he would actually also be condemning the relationship that Christians are supposed to have with God.

    As for believing in God you don't have to know the story and their are no magic words.

    Once you are saved you can simply tell. Its not something anyone could ever explain to you because you will never experience it but it has nothing to do with words or stories lol.

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    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    Christianity was designed to keep slaves submissive and "in their place", it still works the same way today....

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...n_7638676.html

    The "Church" says it is OK if you are suffering and are worked to death because it will all be made good after you die.....

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    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    Christianity was designed to keep slaves submissive and "in their place", it still works the same way today....

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...n_7638676.html

    The "Church" says it is OK if you are suffering and are worked to death because it will all be made good after you die.....
    I guess that makes liberals the real Christians then doesn't it?

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Deuteronomy is the OT which we no longer follow.
    That's not what Jesus said: Mat. 5:17-19

    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
    Ya see, every time it is pointed out that the OT rules make no sense, you guys always make this claim, forgetting that the founder of your religion said the exact opposite. Now he did say that the "only" two commandments you need to follow is "love your neighbour as yourself, and Love God with all your heart," But, you forget the rest of what he said. See, he didn't say because none of the other Old Testament laws really matter any more. No, no. He said because if you do these two, then you will naturally follow all the rest "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.". So, yeah, no. You are not immune fro a single commandment in the Old Testament. You just get a free pass for your wilful disobedience with that whole believe in me, ad your forgiven thing. But you are supposed to do your level best to keep all of the commandments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    As for submission you, not surprisingly, haven't the faintest idea of what that is about.

    She is supposed to submit to the husband, and only him as he submits to God. She does not bow down before all men and its certainly no indication of her worth.
    Actually it is, The 10 commandments even sets her value:

    “You shall not covet your neighbour’s house. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

    Take particular note of the portion I highlighted. A man's wife is listed among his property - the things that "belong" to him. She is more highly valued than his slaves, or his livestock, but less valued than his home. I could also so you other places in the Law where a man's wife, or daughter had their monetary value assigned to them, demonstrating that they are property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    This also doesn't mean she is a slave to the man, he can't order her to do anything he wants, he needs to follow god and be a true and loving husband and someone she wants to follow.

    That combined with their faith in God, and following His Word, will benefit them both.
    It's good that you believe that, but you don't believe that because the Bible says that, anywhere. so you are wilfully behaving in direct contradiction to Biblical treaching because your common sense tells you that the biblical teaching concerning women is misogynistic, and immoral. Good for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    As for slavery Jesus spoke on this many times.

    He used it as a demonstration of the relationship between servant and master and equated it to how Christians should understand this relationship. He even went so far as to compare God at one point to a slave master.

    People back then could make this connection far easier than we can today.
    And you say that like that's a positive thing. Teaching subservience is is great for a nation if you want everyone to be slaves. This is terrible for a nation that wants to progress and grow uniformly strong. If you want a nation to excel, you need to teach your children that genius, whether intellectual, or artistic is the highest virtue. A society raised on that value will create beauty you could never imagine possible, but we've chosen not to go down that path. We've taught people they're dogs who deserve to be beaten. We've taught them that logic is evil and ignorance is strength. It should come as no surprise that every night on the news are stories about people acting like beaten dogs and tearing each other apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    So by Jesus condemning it he would actually also be condemning the relationship that Christians are supposed to have with God.

    As for believing in God you don't have to know the story and their are no magic words.

    Once you are saved you can simply tell. Its not something anyone could ever explain to you because you will never experience it but it has nothing to do with words or stories lol.
    Except the only way to know "you're saved" is by knowing, and believing the story, and saying the "magic words".
    Thanks from MaryAnne

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    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    I guess that makes liberals the real Christians then doesn't it?
    Liberal Christians are the "real" Christians, fundies are just as wrong as Islamic fundies or any other religions fundies.
    Thanks from RedCloud and MaryAnne

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    SWED Missle Command Champion johnflesh's Avatar
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    The 10 Commandments still:

    a. Keep you out of jail - thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal
    b. Keep you out of hot water with your parents, respectful - thou shall honor thy mother and father
    c. Keep you sane from the hype - make no idols
    d. Keep you out of trouble with your wife or husband - thou shall not commit adultry
    e. Keep your neighbor trusting you - bear false witness

    To me, aside from all the horror, most religious text 'of old' remind me of a How to Go Through Life Without All the Bullshit help-guide feel to them.

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnflesh View Post
    The 10 Commandments still:

    a. Keep you out of jail - thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal
    b. Keep you out of hot water with your parents, respectful - thou shall honor thy mother and father
    c. Keep you sane from the hype - make no idols
    d. Keep you out of trouble with your wife or husband - thou shall not commit adultry
    e. Keep your neighbor trusting you - bear false witness

    To me, aside from all the horror, most religious text 'of old' remind me of a How to Go Through Life Without All the Bullshit help-guide feel to them.
    Really? Let's look at the 10 commandments, shall we?


    1. "You shall have no other Gods before me." - Why was that commandment necessary? If Yaweh were the only God in existence, there would be no need for this commandment. And Yaweh, himself, gives the reason a few verses later. "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." Why are you not to worship other gods? Not because he is the only god in existence, but because he is insecure, and jealous of other gods. So, insecure, that if you
      break this commandment, not only will he punish you, but your descendants, as well, for your sins! Yeah, that sound reasonable.
    2. "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." - This is actually kinda brilliant on the part of the writers of the Bible. First, it directly ends the problem the Jewish religious leaders had been having of people worshipping shiny things that tend to impressed humans. Secondly, if you don't have a shiny statue to worship then how are you going to commune with god? Through the religious leaders of course. So, the people become that much more dependent on the ruling priest class.
    3. "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name." Tell you what, let's make things simple. Every time you see the word "LORD", just replace it with "government". LORD is the government in the time and place we're talking about. So, basically, this law is dictating that no one speak out against the government. YAY! mythological crowd control!
    4. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy." Ya know, when I was in the army, we had this thing - outdoors you were always required to wear your cover (cap), and you were required to take it off indoors. This wasn't about protecting your head, or anything like that. It was a subtle way for the army to let you know that you belonged to them, and they controlled your every decision - including whether to wear a hat, or not. The Sabbath works the same way. way. It’s a weekly reminder never to forget that your theocracy rules your life. Other than that, it serves absolutely no productive purpose. And before you say, "But people need a day off!" Why? Who says? Back on the farm you know how many "days off" I got? not one. Cows need milking every day. Hogs need to be slopped every day. The chicken s needed their eggs collected every day. Work that needs top be done doesn't recognise a "Sabbath". It needs to be done. There is no practical reason for Sabbath.
    5. "Honor your father and your mother so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you." Now, it's interesting to note that this is the version of this command as it is found in Ex 20:12. The revised version (after Moses got a case of the ass, and smashed the first tablets, and had to go back up the hill so God could dictate a second set; don't even get me started...) found in 21:17 is a bit more harsh: “Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.” Wait...what??? Oh yeah. In Deuteronomy 21:18-21, the Bible gets much more explicit about how to deal with an unruly kid:“If a man has a stubborn a rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of the city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones.” So, if your kid misbehaves, just take him into town, and have a rock throwing party.

      Interestingly enough, this is the part where most Christians insist, "Hey! We do go in for that 'Old Testament' stuff..." The problem is, you brought in that "Old Testament stuff" when you brought up the 10 commandments as perfectly acceptable Biblical instruction on how to live. So, you don't get to backtrack, now, just because we're getting to some stuff that's uncomfortable. Don't worry, we're about done.
    6. "You shall not murder." Now, here is the first rule that actually makes a sort of sense. After all, it is the basic foundation for most social contracts. Which makes this kind of interesting. By al interpretations of the Bible, the Jews didn't have any rules before God gave them his. This is why Moses was so special he was the bringer of Law; the architect of the rules. But, riddle me this, if the Jews didn't know that murder was wrong, before God came along and said, "Hey! Murder is a bad idea, guys," how is it that there was a Hebrew word for murder? Isn't it more likely that this was just a restating of a law that existed in Jewish culture before the person who wrote the 10 commandments wrote them?
    7. "You shall not commit adultery." Why? You said, "Keep you out of trouble with your wife or husband," But...what if my wife is perfectly fine with me sleeping with other women? What if I know that my wife has a higher sex drive than me, so I'm okay with someone else tagging in? I mean, it's still adultery. Now, the Bible, and Christianity would still insist that it's wrong. Why? Actually there is a good reason for this Law. You see, Biblical marriage law is based on the premise that men buy their wives from their father in-laws, and women are property to be owned and controlled completely by their husband. Yes. I can support that premise with scripture. So, when we understand this, now adultery becomes a matter of someone playing with another's toys without permission, stealing.
    8. "You shall not steal." This is another one of those existing laws of contemporary culture that the writers just kept.
    9. "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbour." This is one of those Laws that Christians assign greater meaning than it actually has. They "interpret" this to mean, "You should never lie". Actually the Bible doesn't say that. The commandment is actually a lot more specific. It says you cannot lie about your neighbour; it doesn't say anything about lying to your neighbour. There was actually a very good reason for this. In Jewish culture at the time, your personal reputation and your family's reputation basically determined your status in society. So, understandably, the people who wrote the Bible were very concerned about protecting the reputation of the men in the culture. Thus to lie about your neighbours was among the top 10 taboo things to do.
    10. "You shall not covet your neighbour’s house. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour." This is one of the most morally depraved laws ever written. Notice the last phrase: "...anything that belongs to your neighbour." With this commandment, the writes of the 10 commandments just relegated women to property. And, they set a value for her - she is more valuable than your slaves, or livestock, but less valuable than your house. Either that's how much the creator of the universe considers women are worth or that's how much one ancient Middle Eastern tribe once considered women were worth. You'll forgive me if I find the latter more likely. But, what's the real real point of the commandment. Why was this commandment necessary? Commandment #8 already said not to steal. So if you're not going to steal then what's wrong with just wanting stuff? Because people who don't want a better life are easiest to control.


    Now, with this new enlightenment about the 10 commandments, are you sure you want to extol their virtues as a moral guideline to behaviour?

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    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
    Correct.

    His arrival fulfilled the OT which is why we started fresh with the NT.

    Everything relevant in the OT was repeated by Jesus, those things that were not were not repeated.

    Except the only way to know "you're saved" is by knowing, and believing the story, and saying the "magic words".
    You can say the words all you want but simply saying them doesn't mean you are saved.

    You have to want to willingly want to give yourself over to Christ, in all aspects.

    And that takes a lot of work, faith, and trust.
    Last edited by Spookycolt; 20th November 2017 at 10:44 PM.

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Correct.

    His arrival fulfilled the OT which is why we started fresh with the NT.

    Everything relevant in the OT was repeated by Jesus, those things that were not were not repeated.
    That's not how that works, and you know it. Or...maybe you don't. Allow me to explain. Jesus makes it clear (Matt 5:18) that not one jot of the law shall pass away until the heavens, and Earth are no more. Now, unless you know something that I don't know, that hasn't happened yet, so his mere arrival wasn't the event that absolves you of the Old Testament Laws, and neither was his alleged death, and resurrection, as both the Heavens, and the Earth are still here, after that event, as well. You are still, by Biblical standard, responsible for adherence to the Old Testament Laws. Yet, you're also not responsible for adherence to Old Testament Laws, according to Paul, and his letter to the Galatians. Oh, goodie! More confusion, and contradiction. Soooo...are we supposed to believe the Jesus guy who insists that the Law will continue to matter until the Heavens and the Earth are no more, or do we believe this "Johnny-Come-Lately" Paul guy who says the Law is meaningless to Christians?

    We're right back to my OP pointing out that the Bible - the entire Bible - is vague, contradictory, and absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    You can say the words all you want but simply saying them doesn't mean you are saved.

    You have to want to willingly want to give yourself over to Christ, in all aspects.

    And that takes a lot of work, faith, and trust.
    Sooo...faith is the cornerstone of Christianity?
    Last edited by Czernobog; 21st November 2017 at 09:41 AM.

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