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Thread: Atheist answer to the 10 Commandments: 10 Rational positions.

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    I didn't miss the point. You just want to gloss over the point, and hope no one notices the significance. You see, the "incarnation/crucifixion" is the point. Your God requires the surrogate life sacrifice of an innocent in order to "forgive" the wickedness of Man. However, the authors of the Jesus myth knew full well how absurd, irrational, and unreasonable it was to expect an innocent person to die for the alleged crimes of others. So, they created a loophole. God, himself, became that innocent, and acted as your surrogate. Unfortunately, in doing so, the creators of your myth rendered the sacrifice meaningless by creating a paradox that none of you can escape. God, by nature, is eternal. He cannot die. This is evidenced by the fact that he was seen wandering around three days later. So, your god's "sacrifice" was a lousy weekend. That was it. He performed a little melodrama to make you all feel bad, and then gave you all a big "reveal", at the end. "See? Not really dead. TA-DA!!!" He gave up a weekend for your "crimes". How ought we treat one another based on his "sacrifice"? I suppose we should be willing to inconvenience ourselves a little, but no more. After all, that was the example that he set.
    To be honest with you, the incarnation and the crucifixion are considered a mystery -- two of the three mysteries catholics contemplate when praying the rosary. They are the cornerstones of the catholic faith and it is pointless to try to explain to a closed-minded person like you the theological significance of something that no one fully understands to begin with.

    What I do know, which is what I have been trying to say for some time now, is the reason why catholic morality is the way it is.

    So, if you feel that there is something irrational or absurd about the church's moral teachings, you might want to address a particular encyclical or ecumenical council that promulgated them. After all, they are a matter of record. There is no point in impugning christian beliefs if you do not know where christians are coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    And, apparently he did. So long as it only inconveniences you a little, that is how you should demonstrate your love to one another. Wow. Great example to follow.
    No. The highest manifestation of human love is to freely give up one's life for the sake of another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    No. that's not practical. That is acting irrationally because of an illogical, paradox-ridden myth.
    So it is more practical to take anti-depressants rather than try to condition your outlook in life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    You keep talking about how we should treat one another. That wasn't my question. You said we should love GOD. I have asked - twice, now - why? Why should we even acknowledge the existence of God, let alone love him? What practical purpose does acknowledging GOD serve? You have yet to answer that question. Somehow, I rather suspect you wont' this time, either.
    You are asking why we ought to love god within the context of ethics????? I already stated that belief in god is not a prerequisite in living an ethical life.

    For christians however (and I presume it is the case for all religions), believing in the existence of god provides the justification for most moral precepts. Truth, justice, equality, love and all those intangible ideas that we consider self-evident, are deemed good because they were instituted by the creator inseparable from human existence. Because if it wasn't instituted by the creator, they are nothing more than human constructs subject to the vagaries of human circumstances. Slavery, genocide, persecution and all the horrible things man has done to his fellow man are considered good simply because enough men thought it was good.

    Is that clear?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    So, IYO, non-Christians are incapable of love?

    Delusional.
    Whoa. Where'd that come from.

    But to be honest, I don't think I am capable of that kind of love.

  3. #103
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Whut? Isn't stealing prohibited by the 8th commandment, about coveting thy neighbor's goods?
    Property theft is not in the Ten Commandments. "Covet" does not mean steal. Here is the meaning of the English word. It is more akin to a jealous desire for something that belongs to someone else. If you kidnap a person, that is "stealing" the person, which is in the 10C. If you take the property, that is property theft and is covered in Vayikra, not Shemot (where the 10C are located).
    Thanks from Wonderer and Madeline

  4. #104
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Okay. If you're going to keep calling them commandments, we're done. Because this is no longer a matter of not understanding; it is a matter of wilfully calling the list of rational positions something they are not, when it has been repeatedly explained to you. Which means you are just acting like a dick, and trolling. If you want to troll expect to be ignored. If you want to have a rational discussion, quit acting like a dick, and trolling.
    Your OP said this is the Atheist Answer to the Ten Commandments, I am just looking for some rationality to your claims and calling you out on it.

  5. #105
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Kant said morality is a command of reason -- so yes, you do need to take orders as a matter of moral duty.



    LOL

    https://www.utilitarianism.com/mill2.htm

    I must again repeat, what the assailants of utilitarianism seldom have the justice to acknowledge, that the happiness which forms the utilitarian standard of what is right in conduct, is not the agent's own happiness, but that of all concerned. As between his own happiness and that of others, utilitarianism requires him to be as strictly impartial as a disinterested and benevolent spectator. In the golden rule of Jesus of Nazareth, we read the complete spirit of the ethics of utility. To do as you would be done by, and to love your neighbour as yourself, constitute the ideal perfection of utilitarian morality.


    Duh?
    That is an Imprecision Fallacy because your information doesn't address my post. I never said Utilitarian ethics only concern the individual.

    Just because the Utilitarian founders may have been Christian doesn't mean atheists can't hold Utilitarian ethics.

    In regards to Kant, you are making a Definist Fallacy where you manipulate definitions of words in order to make your argument look stronger. Kant said morality is a command of reason, and reason is not a supernatural puppet master in the sky that aboutenough worships. If morality is a command of reason, skeptics and Jews are the only moral people because they have the best critical thinking skills.
    Last edited by Michael J; 13th December 2017 at 09:00 PM.

  6. #106
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Your OP said this is the Atheist Answer to the Ten Commandments, I am just looking for some rationality to your claims and calling you out on it.
    He has been giving you rationales for a long time now.

    Do you remember what I've explained to you numerous times? You can't read anything without falling victim to your Self Serving biases. Well, you're probably well aware of your cognitive biases, you just intentionally make them in order to troll.

  7. #107
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Because divine love is the basis of christian ethics.

    How ought we love one another if god suffered a gruesome death for man's sake?
    Is it divine love to make atheists boil alive in the Lake of Fire like it says in Revelations?

  8. #108
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    That’s understandable, that’s why Atheist commit crimes, no moral
    Since you can't address what I wrote, you just make a baseless Argument by Assertion(I am not going to tell you what an Argument by Assertion is again):

    Premise 1: Atheists commit crimes because they have no morals.
    Premise 2: Atheists commit crimes because they have no morals.
    Premise 3: Atheists commit crimes because they have no morals.
    ----
    Conclusion: Atheists commit crimes because they have no morals.

    You also commit the fallacy, Avoiding the Issue because you can't address a salient point: Divorce is immoral because it breaks apart families, and American Christians have a higher divorce rate than American atheists do. Yet you say atheists have no morals just because they are atheists and Christians are moral just because they are Christians. So it is a Non sequitur to say:

    Premise 1: Divorce is immoral.
    Premise 2: American Christians have a higher divorce rate than American atheists do.
    -----
    Conclusion: Atheists aren't moral.

    Do you remember when I handed your ass to you a little more than a year ago when you said the national American crime rate went up because of atheists? I repeatedly asked you to prove that at least a majority of American prison inmates and residents with criminal records are atheists. You said you knew only three former atheists in your church who were atheists when they committed crimes. There are substantially more than three American atheists with no criminal records and substantially more than three Catholic priests who molested children and Christian parents who killed their terminally ill children in faith healing scams. Not only that, but we can't verify those three people from your church to even exist. In other words, you have access to information that no one else has access to.

    Let's add Categorical Syllogisms to your argument:

    1) Everyone who doesn't have morals commits crimes.
    2) No criminals have morals.

    So answer the questions: If atheists commit crimes because they are have no morals, then why aren't at least the majority of criminals in the United States atheists, and why are so few American atheists criminals?
    Last edited by Michael J; 13th December 2017 at 09:20 PM.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    That is an Imprecision Fallacy because your information doesn't address my post. I never said Utilitarian ethics only concern the individual.
    It was an fyi. If I were obliged to be polite, I'd say bentham's moral philosophy is idiotic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    Just because the utilitarian founders may have been Christian doesn't mean atheists can't hold Utilitarian ethics.
    I never argued otherwise.

    The fact is, christian ethics is the highest form of utilitarianism. That is from the mouth of utilitarianism's most esteemed spokesperson. And yet, you seem to be suggesting that utilitarianism contradicts christian ethics.

    Do you even know what you're talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    In regards to Kant, you are making a Definist Fallacy where you manipulate definitions of words in order to make your argument look stronger. Kant said morality is a command of reason, and reason is not a supernatural puppet master in the sky that aboutenough worships. If morality is a command of reason, skeptics and Jews are the only moral people because they have the best critical thinking skills.
    What????

    Kant claims that the only way to understand morality is by the METAPHYSICS of morals -- which means moral law exists objectively. Moral law exists outside the individual and compels him, by reason, to act accordingly. No moral philosophy is more congruent to the church's teachings than kant's philosophy so much so that parts of it may be found in some encyclicals.

    So you see, kant's moral law is a 'puppet-master in the sky'.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    Is it divine love to make atheists boil alive in the Lake of Fire like it says in Revelations?
    What exactly do you think you know about the book of revelation (no s) or the apocalypse of john?

    As for hell, I have already said that hell is a complete privation from good due to a person's rejection of god's grace. So, by definition, you put yourself in the lake of fire, not god.

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