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Thread: Atheist answer to the 10 Commandments: 10 Rational positions.

  1. #41
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    But there is no answer to what protects us all. If your Atheist Commandments we’re taking at face value , then Killing and Stealing would have no consequences


    They. Are not. Commandments. They are rational positions. Your inability to understand the difference speaks volumes about your inability to comprehend reason, and rationality. And the fact that you need to have someone specifically tell you not to steal from people, or murder someone in order for you to be able to figure out that those are not good ideas, speaks to your inability to arrive at moral behaviour by intelligent reasoning. Clearly you are so immoral that you need to have morals dictated to you in clear, unambiguous terms. The irony is that you don't even understand how deeply flawed that makes you.
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  2. #42
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    those issues weren’t addressed, just wondering how Atheist deal with issues like that in their Commandments
    They don't since Atheists don't have commandments. The way we deal with those questions in our moral calculus is pretty simple: we treat others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect they want to be treated, and we accept responsibility for our choices, and recognise that our choices have consequences.

    See, here's the thing, aboutenough. There is no "rule" that says you can't steal. However, if you decide to steal from another person, you should always do so with full expectation of being caught. And you should be prepared to accept whatever consequences will follow being caught. And I'm not just talking about the law, here. Because it may not be the authorities that catch you; it may be the guy you stole from. In that case, the consequences of getting caught could well be much more severe than the law would impose. So, hey, as long as you're willing to accept the consequences of your actions, steal away.

    Just don't piss and moan when your actions cause "What. Comes. Next."

  3. #43
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    But there is no answer to what protects us all. If your Atheist Commandments we’re taking at face value , then Killing and Stealing would have no consequences
    Reread number 7 and maybe you'll learn how to make inferences.

  4. #44
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post


    They. Are not. Commandments. They are rational positions. Your inability to understand the difference speaks volumes about your inability to comprehend reason, and rationality. And the fact that you need to have someone specifically tell you not to steal from people, or murder someone in order for you to be able to figure out that those are not good ideas, speaks to your inability to arrive at moral behaviour by intelligent reasoning. Clearly you are so immoral that you need to have morals dictated to you in clear, unambiguous terms. The irony is that you don't even understand how deeply flawed that makes you.
    It is like I said earlier, he doesn't understand anything outside of his totalitarian dogma.

  5. #45
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    Reread number 7 and maybe you'll learn how to make inferences.
    I just realised that aboutenough doesn't comprehend that the "10 Commandments" is a set of personal moral dictates. He perceives them to be a set of societal laws. This is why he keeps referring to things like theft, and murder, and points out that my 10 Rational positions does nothing to "protect us".

    The thing is, if the "10 Commandments" is a social contract (a set of agreed upon societal rules) then it is a rather poorly constructed social contract. I mean, "Worship no other Gods before me"?!?! How does that protect anyone from anyone?!?! "Do not worship idols"?!?! Who the fuck are you protecting me from with that one?!?! "Observe the Sabbath"?!?! Again, this is for my protection? From whom?!?!

    See, those "commandment" clearly demonstrate that the "10 Commandments" was never meant as a social contract, but was meant as a personal moral code that each adherent of the religion were meant to practice in their personal lives. This is why I think my 10 Reasonable Positions is superior. It allows adherents to engage their intellect, presumes that people are capable, when given the opportunity, to arrive at rational moral choices, and removes supernatural dumbfuckery from the equation.

  6. #46
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    those issues weren’t addressed, just wondering how Atheist deal with issues like that in their Commandments
    Atheists don't take orders from supernatural puppet masters in the sky like your brand of Christianity does. You don't have to take orders from one in order to be moral. In fact, there are plenty of Christians who are immoral, and they live by the Ten Commandments. Look at you. You libel atheists, Jews and anyone who isn't a Christian Dominionist. Lying is forbidden by the Ten Commandments. Is fascism moral? You hold heavily fascist ideologies. You believe Christians are a master race who should exclude every non-Christian American. It's why you want Creationism taught in schools and government to endorse Christianity.

    Morals, as Utilitarian philosopher Jeremy Bentham understood, are an issue of pleasure versus pain. What maximizes pleasure and minimizes pain is probably the most moral action. Atheists can easily understand this because they have a much less bloody history than Christianity does. Divorce causes pain, and American atheists have a much lower divorce rate than American Christians do.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/divorce-ra...theists-248494

  7. #47
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    I just realised that aboutenough doesn't comprehend that the "10 Commandments" is a set of personal moral dictates. He perceives them to be a set of societal laws. This is why he keeps referring to things like theft, and murder, and points out that my 10 Rational positions does nothing to "protect us".

    The thing is, if the "10 Commandments" is a social contract (a set of agreed upon societal rules) then it is a rather poorly constructed social contract. I mean, "Worship no other Gods before me"?!?! How does that protect anyone from anyone?!?! "Do not worship idols"?!?! Who the fuck are you protecting me from with that one?!?! "Observe the Sabbath"?!?! Again, this is for my protection? From whom?!?!

    See, those "commandment" clearly demonstrate that the "10 Commandments" was never meant as a social contract, but was meant as a personal moral code that each adherent of the religion were meant to practice in their personal lives. This is why I think my 10 Reasonable Positions is superior. It allows adherents to engage their intellect, presumes that people are capable, when given the opportunity, to arrive at rational moral choices, and removes supernatural dumbfuckery from the equation.
    That's what Christian Dominionists believe. They think the Ten Commandments are societal laws that must be followed because Christians are a master race. In other words, internal cleansing. It is nothing more to it than that: pure fascism.

  8. #48
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    I think I need some clarification of your question: ...when "they" self-harm in service of irrational beliefs... Who do you mean by "they"?
    Religious people, such as the Catholics who are (supposed to) oppose stem cell research, or the Christian Scientists who refuse medical care even for their kids.

  9. #49
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    Morals, as Utilitarian philosopher Jeremy Bentham understood, are an issue of pleasure versus pain. What maximizes pleasure and minimizes pain is probably the most moral action.
    There are problems with utilitarian philosophy whether act utilitarianism, or rule utilitarianism. With the latter, minorities do not do so well under the law; and with the former, acts that we would consider to be immoral are easily justified. This is a simplistic response, of course - I'm reaching back over 20 years to college (though I still my copy of J.S. Mill's works Utilitarianism, On Liberty and Considerations on Representative Government - I do not recall having read the latter).

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    Divorce causes pain....
    In support of your utilitarian position, divorce does not cause as much pain as remaining married, else people would not get divorced.
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  10. #50
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    One of the biggest frustrations I had as a child, and still do, with the Catholic religion and Christianity in general was the enormous, unrelenting pressure to conform to a value and behavior system that I could not even remotely begin to understand. Every time one of the nuns suspected I was reconsidering what I had been taught, I was bullied, shamed and punished.

    It's literally not compatible with mental health. They know it, and don't care (or didn't), because mentally healthy Catholics were not valued, especially not the females.

    Trying to impose values on a child in an authoritarian manner is abusive, IMO.

    It's part of every sentient adult's drive to make sense of the world and their place in it, including their desire to feel self-worth by behaving as they believe is ethical. Too many devout Christians see their duty as free range bullies, imposing codes of behavior on anyone they can and society at large. They have no capacity to tolerate dissent and no mutual respect, and no willingness at all to listen to their target's POV. And their churches reward this.
    Last edited by Madeline; 13th December 2017 at 01:33 AM.

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