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Thread: Which ideals, specifically?

  1. #21
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    I suspect that most would respond with Matt. 22:21....
    Which would not, of course, be a Judeo-Xian principle, then.

  2. #22
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    No ruler claimed to speak for G-d or to be specially empowered in some spiritual way.
    Except, of course, for the divine right of kings.
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  3. #23
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    Therefore, the fact that our constitution does indeed contain some ideals that can also be found within Jewish or Christian doctrine is in no way evidence that our founders intended to create a "Christian Nation", much less a "Judeo-Christian Nation", whatever that is.
    And, of course, a nation that is truly "Judeo-Xian" in nature cannot really exist, since the two religions are incompatible with each other.
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  4. #24
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    And, of course, a nation that is truly "Judeo-Xian" in nature cannot really exist, since the two religions are incompatible with each other.
    I suspect that our founders well understood that the incompatibility between even the various divisions within Christianity or within Judaism were too extreme for government to risk attaching itself to any one particular religious sect. They often danced around this issue in their speeches and writings with a variety of very generic references to a Higher Power, but had they truly intended for the United States to have been a theocracy, they could have easily specified as much, and they didn't.
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  5. #25
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    There is a difference between America being founded on Judea-Christian ideals and the Constitution. Shapiro did not mention the Constitution. The Bible is the basis of several concepts in the Constitution. The US was not founded as a unitary government and the state were the United States and ther constitutions were replete with the New Testament and Christian clauses, which would in a historical sense, make the United States being founded upon Judea-Christian ideals. The Ten Commandments and the Old Testament was very influencial as well.

  6. #26
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    There is a difference between America being founded on Judea-Christian ideals and the Constitution. Shapiro did not mention the Constitution. The Bible is the basis of several concepts in the Constitution. The US was not founded as a unitary government and the state were the United States and ther constitutions were replete with the New Testament and Christian clauses, which would in a historical sense, make the United States being founded upon Judea-Christian ideals. The Ten Commandments and the Old Testament was very influencial as well.
    The ideals in the Old Testament weren't new ideals.

    Many of the ideals of the founders weren't immediately realized. It's true that some of the original, founding states were theocracies, but none of them remain so today, nor is slavery any longer allowed.
    Last edited by NightSwimmer; 28th December 2017 at 04:23 PM.

  7. #27
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    The ideals in the Old Testament weren't new ideals.

    Many of the ideals of the founders weren't immediately realized. It's true that some of the original, founding states were theocracies, but none of them remain so today, nor is slavery any longer allowed.
    The Old Testament was the basis for laws and morality prior to the founding era, through the founding era, and as recently as 1991.

  8. #28
    Above the FRAY Friday13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    It's not UNIQUE to Judea-Christianity, but the notion of equality of all people is a J-C value, arising from the notion that all souls are equal in the sight of God. Also the separation of religious authority and civil authority is a Judeo-Christian idea as well.
    1...Show me the Xian equality of all peoples. Israel was a "kingdom", no equality. Holy Roman Empire, ruled by religion. The "Divine Right of Kings/Emperors" to rule, no equality. Slavery is in the bible. This "equality" is a modern "notion". The 'souls' may be equal, but the people never have been in reality.

    2...Show me the "separation of religious authority and civil authority". Refer to #1. And even now there are those who would inject religion into government in every country.

    Those "ideals" were, perhaps, existent in the "Judeo-Xian" philosophy/principle/theory, but not in practice. If not for the Constitution, created by Deists, this America that we know would be a Xian theocracy.
    Last edited by Friday13; 28th December 2017 at 05:09 PM.

  9. #29
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    The Old Testament was the basis for laws and morality prior to the founding era, through the founding era, and as recently as 1991.
    That is a nonsensical assertion.
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  10. #30
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    That is a nonsensical assertion.
    It is just simple history.

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