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Thread: Which ideals, specifically?

  1. #31
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    It is just simple history.
    It's quite simple. I'll concede that much.
    Last edited by NightSwimmer; 28th December 2017 at 05:21 PM.

  2. #32
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    I suspect that our founders well understood that the incompatibility between even the various divisions within Christianity or within Judaism were too extreme for government to risk attaching itself to any one particular religious sect. They often danced around this issue in their speeches and writings with a variety of very generic references to a Higher Power, but had they truly intended for the United States to have been a theocracy, they could have easily specified as much, and they didn't.
    I agree, but that would mean that the Constitution had less to do with "Judaeo-Christian ideals", and more to do with the political desire to not allow anyreligion to insert its ideals into our government.
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  3. #33
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    There is a difference between America being founded on Judea-Christian ideals and the Constitution. Shapiro did not mention the Constitution. The Bible is the basis of several concepts in the Constitution. The US was not founded as a unitary government and the state were the United States and ther constitutions were replete with the New Testament and Christian clauses, which would in a historical sense, make the United States being founded upon Judea-Christian ideals. The Ten Commandments and the Old Testament was very influencial as well.
    Really? I may be mistaken, but when most people speak of "America" the common presumption is that they are referring to The United States of America. Do you know of some other version of America? Because if not, then the founding of America was the Constitution.
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  4. #34
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    The Old Testament was the basis for laws and morality prior to the founding era, through the founding era, and as recently as 1991.
    No it wasn't. Only 2 of the 10 Commandments were even codified into the American legal system: Murder, and theft. There is civil use of adultery for divorce, however even that is being done away with. There is not a single mention of the first 4 commandments, and not only is there no law requiring children to "obey their parents", there are, in fact, a plethora of laws - which were noticeably lacking in the 10 commandments - dictating how parents are allowed to treat their children. Further not a single law making envy (coveting) a crime. Almost none of the 613 laws of the Old Testament found its way into the American juris prudence.

    To insist that the Old Testament Laws, in any meaningful way, was used as a template for American laws demonstrates an appalling lack of understanding of the Old
    Testament Laws, the American system of laws, or both.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 28th December 2017 at 05:24 PM.
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  5. #35
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friday13 View Post
    1...Show me the Xian equality of all peoples. Israel was a "kingdom", no equality.
    The Kingdom of Israel (whether the united kingdom, or the two subsequent kingdoms that split off from it) was a Jewish kingdom, not a Xian one. And the notion of equality before G-d is not the same as the one we in the United States hold today. Even the king was subject to the Torah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Friday13 View Post
    Slavery is in the bible.
    It is, but the rules by which slaves may be held (as expounded upon in the oral Torah) makes it hardly worth the effort.

  6. #36
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    No it wasn't. Only 2 of the 10 Commandments were even codified into the American legal system: Murder, and theft.
    And murder and kidnaping ("theft" of persons, which is what this one is about) are illegal in every society, Torah or not. Plus, you forgot perjury ("bearing false witness," not the same as simply lying).

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    There is civil use of adultery for divorce, however even that is being done away with.
    Not only that, but "adultery" in the 10C was referring only to sex between a married woman and someone not her husband (both being liable for the violation), so it was fairly narrow anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    There is not a single mention of the first 4 commandments, and not only is there no law requiring children to "obey their parents", there are, in fact, a plethora of laws - which were noticeably lacking in the 10 commandments - dictating how parents are allowed to treat their children. Further not a single law making envy (coveting) a crime.
    The first four (acknowledging G-d; no graven images / idolatry; no taking G-d's name in vain; observe the Sabbath) are strictly religious dictates that may not be imposed pursuant to the Establishment Clause anyway. Enforcing the dictate that children honor their parents would be rather difficult, especially considering there are exceptions in the oral Torah anyway. Enforcing a dictate against coveting (more analogous to jealousy than envy) would be impossible.

    Shemot (Exodus) 20:13

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Almost none of the 613 laws of the Old Testament found its way into the American juris prudence.
    Being religious laws (and supplemented and interpreted by the oral Torah), the Constitution forbids them from being included anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    To insist that the Old Testament Laws, in any meaningful way, was used as a template for American laws demonstrates an appalling lack of understanding of the Old Testament Laws, the American system of laws, or both.
    Very few people have a solid understanding of Torah law anyway, compared to the whole population. And in the United States, those laws are unenforceable anyway.

  7. #37
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Really? I may be mistaken, but when most people speak of "America" the common presumption is that they are referring to The United States of America. Do you know of some other version of America? Because if not, then the founding of America was the Constitution.
    I have the historical version of the founding of America that the Constitution is a compact between the states and what the term "United States" meant before semantic drift, which does not change the meaning of the term. You are referring to the United States as a unitary government; it is not.

  8. #38
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    And murder and kidnaping ("theft" of persons, which is what this one is about) are illegal in every society, Torah or not. Plus, you forgot perjury ("bearing false witness," not the same as simply lying).


    Not only that, but "adultery" in the 10C was referring only to sex between a married woman and someone not her husband (both being liable for the violation), so it was fairly narrow anyway.


    The first four (acknowledging G-d; no graven images / idolatry; no taking G-d's name in vain; observe the Sabbath) are strictly religious dictates that may not be imposed pursuant to the Establishment Clause anyway. Enforcing the dictate that children honor their parents would be rather difficult, especially considering there are exceptions in the oral Torah anyway. Enforcing a dictate against coveting (more analogous to jealousy than envy) would be impossible.

    Shemot (Exodus) 20:13


    Being religious laws (and supplemented and interpreted by the oral Torah), the Constitution forbids them from being included anyway.


    Very few people have a solid understanding of Torah law anyway, compared to the whole population. And in the United States, those laws are unenforceable anyway.
    Well, this was rather my point; that, contrary to his absurd claim, the Old Testament was absolutely not a template for American laws. You took it a bit further, pointing out that it couldn't be, which makes my observation that it wasn't no less accurate.
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  9. #39
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    No it wasn't. Only 2 of the 10 Commandments were even codified into the American legal system: Murder, and theft. There is civil use of adultery for divorce, however even that is being done away with. There is not a single mention of the first 4 commandments, and not only is there no law requiring children to "obey their parents", there are, in fact, a plethora of laws - which were noticeably lacking in the 10 commandments - dictating how parents are allowed to treat their children. Further not a single law making envy (coveting) a crime. Almost none of the 613 laws of the Old Testament found its way into the American juris prudence.

    To insist that the Old Testament Laws, in any meaningful way, was used as a template for American laws demonstrates an appalling lack of understanding of the Old
    Testament Laws, the American system of laws, or both.
    There are more than two commandments as the basis for our laws.

  10. #40
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    I have the historical version of the founding of America that the Constitution is a compact between the states and what the term "United States" meant before semantic drift, which does not change the meaning of the term. You are referring to the United States as a unitary government; it is not.
    Meeehhh...not really accurate. Your claim implies that we have no central government of any consequence, and the states are free to govern themselves. Admittedly, that is certainly what the anti-federalists wanted, but that's not quite what we ended up with when the Constitution was adopted.
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