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Thread: Which ideals, specifically?

  1. #51
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Are they? Are ANY two religions incompatible?
    Not necessarily, though nothing is coming to mind at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Chrsitintiy borrows a great deal from Judaism--sees itself as Judiasm's fulfillment.
    It is wrong to say so, because its fundamental tenets are antithetical to Judaism. Sure, it borrowed plenty from Judaism, but more some of the ethics than the theology. One cannot adhere to both religions. While that may conceivably be true of any two religions, these two are theological opposites. Judaism says one thing, and Xianity says the opposite (with some mistranslations and decontextualizations thrown in).

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Not necessarily, though nothing is coming to mind at the moment.


    It is wrong to say so, because its fundamental tenets are antithetical to Judaism. Sure, it borrowed plenty from Judaism, but more some of the ethics than the theology.
    And it's the ethics that matter to the idea I'm describing. In fact, it's ONLY the ethics I'm describing. The theology is, except in broad outline, less important.

    The theologies of both religions derive from a notion of a singular deity who views the creation of humans as a special One cannot adhere to both religions. While that may conceivably be true of any two religions, these two are theological opposites. Judaism says one thing, and Xianity says the opposite (with some mistranslations and decontextualizations thrown in).
    Again, I would suggest that in broad outline, they are more similar to each other and different from world religions than you admit. You an tell me where I go wrong, but are these things not true?

    The theologies of both religions derive from a notion of a singular deity who views the creation of humans as in some way special. Humans are not just one of many species in a complex web of both biology and spirituality where humans are simply one part of nature, albeit the most self-aware part. The nature of the universe is a result of the intentions of this deity, not some spiritual system in which one god or many are simply constituent parts, governed by a principle (like karma) that is beyond the control even of deities. The universe is thus a product of this deity's personality and intentions, subject to this deity's control.

    This deity can and does promulgate rules by which the universe should operate, and the deity informs the self-aware, free to choose humans of these rules. He gives humans control over their part of the universe, but instructs them in the ways they should go. Notions of mutual respect and care for the less fortunate play a key role in these rules. Also key is the essential equality of human beings, whose souls are equal.

    These ideas are part of both religions, no?
    Last edited by Rasselas; 28th December 2017 at 08:39 PM.

  3. #53
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    They were all covered.

    Articles, Lawes, and Orders, Divine, Politique, and Martiall for the Colony in Virginea
    1610.

    Laws of Plymouth Colony 1636.

    New Haven codes of Connecticut 1656

    Capital Lawes of New-England 1641.

    Some of the laws, which were still being prosecuted into the twentieth century:
    If any man after legall conviction, shall have or worship any other God, but the Lord God, he shall be put to death. Deuteronomy. 13:6, &c and 17:2, &c. Exodus 22:30.

    If any persons shall blaspheme the Name of God the Father, Sonne, or Holy Ghost, with direct, expresse, presumptuous, or high-handed blasphemy, or shall curse God in the like manner, he shall be put to death.

    That no man speak impiously or maliciously against the holy and blessed Trinity or any of the three persons . . . upon pain of death.

    That no man blaspheme God’s holy name upon the pain of death.

    If any person shall blaspheme the name of God the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost, with direct, express, presumptuous or high-handed blasphemy, or shall curse in the like manner, he shall be put to death. Lev. 24.15, 16.

    If any person shall commit any wilfull murther, which is Man slaughter, committed upon premeditate malice, hatred, or crueltie not in a mans necessary and just defence, nor by meer casualty against his will, he shall be put to death. Exod. 21. 12. 13. Numb. 35. 31.

    If any person slayeth another suddenly in his anger, or cruelty of passion, he shall be put to death. Levit. 24. 17. Numb. 35. 20. 21.

    If any person shall slay another through guile, either by poysoning, or other such devilish practice, he shall be put to death. Exod. 21. 14.

    If any person committeth adultery with a married, or espoused wife, the Adulterer and the Adulteresse, shall surely be put to death. Lev. 20:10, 18, 20; Deut. 22:23, 24.

    Idolatry. It is enacted by ye Assembly and ye authority thereof, yet if any person having had the knowledge of the true God openly and manifestly have or worship any other god but the Lord God, he shall be put to death. Ex. 22.20, Deut. 13.6 and 10.
    Soooo...when you talk of the "founding of America", you mean the founding of the British Colonies in America. Okay. Although I'm pretty sure that's not what Ben Shapiro meant with his tweet, and is not what most theists mean when they make this claim.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 28th December 2017 at 09:09 PM.

  4. #54
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    All Western Civilization is a continuing progression from Greece, Rome, Charlemagne, The Magna Carta, The Rennaisence, The Enlightenment, The Industrial Revolution, The Civil Rights movement and the Information Age.

    There is no way in my mind to say that a violent, armed revolution for economic and political rights was based on Judeo-Christian principles. Thatís an oxymoron.
    Last edited by Dr.Knuckles; 28th December 2017 at 09:19 PM.

  5. #55
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Soooo...when you talk of the "founding of America", you mean the founding of the British Colonies in America. Okay. Although I'm pretty sure that's not what Ben Shapiro meant with his tweet, and is not what most theists mean when they make this claim.
    No, I mean the basis of our laws.

    I provided the laws that you said did not exist. I see no reason to be led down the Shapiro path as I have already addressed that.

  6. #56
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Soooo...when you talk of the "founding of America", you mean the founding of the British Colonies in America. Okay. Although I'm pretty sure that's not what Ben Shapiro meant with his tweet, and is not what most theists mean when they make this claim.
    Yeah...I don't disagree that those laws were in effect in the 1600's. I'd like to you demonstrate, with cited sources that they continued to exist, and be enforced, after the ratification of the Constitution.

    "If any man after legall conviction, shall have or worship any other God, but the Lord God, he shall be put to death.", for example. I would really like some evidence that this was an actual law that existed after the ratification of the Constitution. You'll forgive me, if, considering the First Amendment, I find that claim to be more than a bit dubious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    All Western Civilization is a continuing progression from Greece, Rome, Charlemagne, The Magna Carta, The Rennaisence, The Enlightenment, The Industrial Revolution, The Civil Rights movement and the Information Age.

    There is no way in my mind to say that a violent, armed revolution for economic and political rights was based on Judeo-Christian principles. That’s an oxymoron.
    Not the armed part, but the idea of economic and political rights, yes. The notion of rights wasn't developed everyone around the world at once. The Greeks had democracy, but they had no discussion of rights per se, and they didn't believe at all in the the equality of human beings. Romans had notions of rights, but they were qualified to Romans--again, no idea of equality.

  8. #58
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Yeah...I don't disagree that those laws were in effect in the 1600's. I'd like to you demonstrate, with cited sources that they continued to exist, and be enforced, after the ratification of the Constitution.

    "If any man after legall conviction, shall have or worship any other God, but the Lord God, he shall be put to death.", for example. I would really like some evidence that this was an actual law that existed after the ratification of the Constitution. You'll forgive me, if, considering the First Amendment, I find that claim to be more than a bit dubious.
    It is incumbent on you to demonstrate that a state made an official declaration that they were creating a new murder law, etc. that is not based on the historical basis of that law.

    I have already made that point and some of these laws were enforced in the twentieth century.

  9. #59
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    It is incumbent on you to demonstrate that a state made an official declaration that they were creating a new murder law, etc. that is not based on the historical basis of that law.

    I have already made that point and some of these laws were enforced in the twentieth century.
    Yeah...murder, theft, and perjury. The three I mentioned. I dare you to find blasphemy, heathen, or idolatry laws that lasted beyond the actual forming of our nation with the Constitution, and its Constitutional restriction on just such laws. Your 'Old Testament" commandments, by and large did not survive the actual founding of the nation. Thank Reason for that.

    Incidentally, since you were quoting from the Massachusetts Body of Liberties, I'm sure you also know that that legal code didn't even last until the Constitution. Rather, it was revoked by Charles in 1684. So, actually none of the laws in that charter were "still being prosecuted into the twentieth century," But, I'm sure you knew that, being so well versed in American Legal history.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 28th December 2017 at 09:53 PM.

  10. #60
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Yeah...murder, theft, and perjury. The three I mentioned. I dare you to find blasphemy, heathen, or idolatry laws that lasted beyond the actual forming of our nation with the Constitution, and its Constitutional restriction on just such laws. Your 'Old Testament" commandments, by and large did not survive the actual founding of the nation. Thank Reason for that.
    Do you mean like People v. Ruggles (1811) or State v. Mockus (1921)?

    There is no constitutional restriction regarding those state laws.

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