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Thread: Which ideals, specifically?

  1. #61
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Yeah...murder, theft, and perjury. The three I mentioned. I dare you to find blasphemy, heathen, or idolatry laws that lasted beyond the actual forming of our nation with the Constitution, and its Constitutional restriction on just such laws. Your 'Old Testament" commandments, by and large did not survive the actual founding of the nation. Thank Reason for that.

    Incidentally, since you were quoting from the Massachusetts Body of Liberties, I'm sure you also know that that legal code didn't even last until the Constitution. Rather, it was revoked by Charles in 1684. So, actually none of the laws in that charter were "still being prosecuted into the twentieth century," But, I'm sure you knew that, being so well versed in American Legal history.
    Incidentally, King James reinstated the Massachusetts Body of Liberties.

  2. #62
    Veteran Member MaryAnne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I like Ben Shapiro. But I think he's an idiot for pandering to religion like this. Conservatism needs to appeal to reason, and that means embracing evidence and science, not religion and superstition.
    I agree.

  3. #63
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    Incidentally, King James reinstated the Massachusetts Body of Liberties.
    ...until it was replaced by the Massachusetts Charter of 1691, which read nothing like the Body of Liberties. As I said, none of the statutes in the aforementioned Bodies were "still being prosecuted into the twentieth century".

  4. #64
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    Do you mean like People v. Ruggles (1811) or State v. Mockus (1921)?

    There is no constitutional restriction regarding those state laws.
    Okay. Apparently we can add one more - #3. That makes a total of 5. Still waiting for those laws about idolatry, and refusing to worship God.

  5. #65
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    ...until it was replaced by the Massachusetts Charter of 1691, which read nothing like the Body of Liberties. As I said, none of the statutes in the aforementioned Bodies were "still being prosecuted into the twentieth century".
    Yes they are and I have provided the evidence.

    After your claim that there was only two commandments codified into law, the Body of Liberties was gone, the Constitution precluded these laws, and these laws were not prosecuted after the Constitution, which history has demonstrated that all of your declarations are incorrect, I see no reason for me to continue chasing anymore historically incorrect declarations that are based solely on disdain for religion and the Bible.

  6. #66
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    The theologies of both religions derive from a notion of a singular deity who views the creation of humans as in some way special.
    Partially true. The Xian version of G-d is a tripartite entity, not a singular deity as in Judaism (and Islam), which includes a human who is also G-d and the messiah of the Jewish scriptures. It is true that humans are considered to be a special creation in both, but even these concepts are radically different between the two religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Humans are not just one of many species in a complex web of both biology and spirituality where humans are simply one part of nature, albeit the most self-aware part.
    Not just one of many, &c., but certainly those things are true as far as they go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    The nature of the universe is a result of the intentions of this deity, not some spiritual system in which one god or many are simply constituent parts, governed by a principle (like karma) that is beyond the control even of deities. The universe is thus a product of this deity's personality and intentions, subject to this deity's control.
    Mostly true, though in Judaism G-d would not have a "personality" as such, since G-d is not a human, or a "person" as we understand people. Contrast Xianity, in which G-d becomes a human who is fully G-d and fully human (and thus could be considered to have a personality), and which is antithetical to Judaism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    This deity can and does promulgate rules by which the universe should operate, and the deity informs the self-aware, free to choose humans of these rules.
    Those rules include, of course, all the natural laws under which we operate. Science thus is merely an exploration of those rules and creation in general. There are many in Xianity (and very few in Judaism) who disparage science

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    These ideas are part of both religions, no?
    Some of them. Xianity borrowed heavily from Judaism and grew out from it, but ultimately Xianity is a rejection of Judaism. While in the "broad outline" there are similarities, the two cannot be reconciled once you scratch below the surface, especially when trying to apply the principles of both to one society, such that the concept "Judeo-Xian" simply does not work as such.

  7. #67
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Not the armed part, but the idea of economic and political rights, yes. The notion of rights wasn't developed everyone around the world at once. The Greeks had democracy, but they had no discussion of rights per se, and they didn't believe at all in the the equality of human beings. Romans had notions of rights, but they were qualified to Romans--again, no idea of equality.
    Was it a Judeo-Christian ideal to exclude black people from said equality when our Judeo-Christian nation was founded?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Ben Shapiro posted this on his twitter account on Christmas:
    Merry Christmas, and thank God America is a nation founded on Judea-Christian ideals! May that truth never change.

    This is not, by any means, the first time I have heard this. I have a question. What ideals, specifically, in the Constitution come from "Judeo-Christianity", and are unique to "Judeo-Christianity"? Because, you see, just because something in the Constitution can be found in Christian teachings, does not, automatically, mean that Christianity was the source - partiularly if that same ideal can be found elsewhere.
    There is no possible response to this that can be vetted in this space. A comprehensive analysis of all religions and philosophies to determine that something is unique requires a venue dissimilar to one whose favorite sport is whack-a-mole.

  9. #69
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Yeah...I don't disagree that those laws were in effect in the 1600's. I'd like to you demonstrate, with cited sources that they continued to exist, and be enforced, after the ratification of the Constitution.

    "If any man after legall conviction, shall have or worship any other God, but the Lord God, he shall be put to death.", for example. I would really like some evidence that this was an actual law that existed after the ratification of the Constitution. You'll forgive me, if, considering the First Amendment, I find that claim to be more than a bit dubious.
    There were unconstitutional laws on the books in many of the states when our nation was first founded. Not addressing some of these issues immediately was a necessary compromise at the time. One of the most critical aspects of our constitutional law was the foresight on the part of the founders to allow for evolution over time. If the strict constructionists had their way, the United States would have been permanently locked into being a loose confederation of independent states which only allowed white land owners to vote. Had we, as a nation lacked the ability to evolve over time, it is highly unlikely that the US would still exist as a nation today.

  10. #70
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    There were unconstitutional laws on the books in many of the states when our nation was first founded. Not addressing some of these issues immediately was a necessary compromise at the time. One of the most critical aspects of our constitutional law was the foresight on the part of the founders to allow for evolution over time. If the strict constructionists had their way, the United States would have been permanently locked into being a loose confederation of independent states which only allowed white land owners to vote. Had we, as a nation lacked the ability to evolve over time, it is highly unlikely that the US would still exist as a nation today.
    What were the states' unconstitutional laws?

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