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Thread: Which ideals, specifically?

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Which ideals, specifically?

    Ben Shapiro posted this on his twitter account on Christmas:
    Merry Christmas, and thank God America is a nation founded on Judea-Christian ideals! May that truth never change.

    This is not, by any means, the first time I have heard this. I have a question. What ideals, specifically, in the Constitution come from "Judeo-Christianity", and are unique to "Judeo-Christianity"? Because, you see, just because something in the Constitution can be found in Christian teachings, does not, automatically, mean that Christianity was the source - partiularly if that same ideal can be found elsewhere.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 28th December 2017 at 09:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Ben Shapiro posted this on his twitter account on Christmas:
    Merry Christmas, and thank God America is a nation founded on Judea-Christian ideals! May that truth never change.

    This is not, by any means, the first time I have heard this. I have a question. What ideals, specifically, in the Constitution come from "Judeo-Christianity", and are unique to "Judeo-Christianity"? Because, you see, just because something in the Constitution can be found in Christian teachings, does not, automatically, mean that Christianity was the source - partiularly if that same ideal can be found elsewhere.
    It's not UNIQUE to Judea-Christianity, but the notion of equality of all people is a J-C value, arising from the notion that all souls are equal in the sight of God. Also the separation of religious authority and civil authority is a Judeo-Christian idea as well.

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    It's not UNIQUE to Judea-Christianity, but the notion of equality of all people is a J-C value, arising from the notion that all souls are equal in the sight of God. Also the separation of religious authority and civil authority is a Judeo-Christian idea as well.
    And therein my point. Correlation does not equate causatiopn. Because, as you noted, it is not a uniquely Christian concept, one cannot simply declare the equality of all people is included in the Constitution because it is a "Judeo-Christian ideal".

    You see, Shapiro, and others, don't talk about the Constitution containing ideals that can be found in Judaeo-Christianity; they insist that the Constitution was founded in Judaeo-Christian ideals. In order to demonstrate that, one would think they could point to, at least, one principal found in the Constitution that is unique to Judaeo-Christianity.

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    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    And therein my point. Correlation does not equate causatiopn. Because, as you noted, it is not a uniquely Christian concept, one cannot simply declare the equality of all people is included in the Constitution because it is a "Judeo-Christian ideal".

    You see, Shapiro, and others, don't talk about the Constitution containing ideals that can be found in Judaeo-Christianity; they insist that the Constitution was founded in Judaeo-Christian ideals. In order to demonstrate that, one would think they could point to, at least, one principal found in the Constitution that is unique to Judaeo-Christianity.
    Not exactly. Those are Judeo Christian ideals. It's just a fact. You inferring that they "really mean" that they are solely Judeo Christian ideals doesn't invalidate their point.

    If I say red is my favorite color, and you tell me "HA! Lots of people have that as their favorite color THEREFORE YOU ARE WRONG!" that would seem kind of silly, right? But that's what you are doing here. Saying that religious ideals aren't held by people unless they are the only ones that hold them, or invented them.
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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanStill View Post
    Not exactly. Those are Judeo Christian ideals. It's just a fact. You inferring that they "really mean" that they are solely Judeo Christian ideals doesn't invalidate their point.

    If I say red is my favorite color, and you tell me "HA! Lots of people have that as their favorite color THEREFORE YOU ARE WRONG!" that would seem kind of silly, right? But that's what you are doing here. Saying that religious ideals aren't held by people unless they are the only ones that hold them, or invented them.
    No. My point is that I could just as easily insist that the Constitution was founded on the code of Hammurabi, because those same ideals found in Christianity are found in the code of Hummurabi. Or the Magna Carta. Or the Iroquois Confederacy. Or, any of a thousand other sources. So, why keep insisting that it was based on Judaeo-Christian ideals, as if that is somehow something that matters?

    To put it another way, I fully concede that much of the Constitution can be found in Judaeo-Christian teachings. So what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Ben Shapiro posted this on his twitter account on Christmas:
    Merry Christmas, and thank God America is a nation founded on Judea-Christian ideals! May that truth never change.

    This is not, by any means, the first time I have heard this. I have a question. What ideals, specifically, in the Constitution come from "Judeo-Christianity", and are unique to "Judeo-Christianity"? Because, you see, just because something in the Constitution can be found in Christian teachings, does not, automatically, mean that Christianity was the source - partiularly if that same ideal can be found elsewhere.
    I like Ben Shapiro. But I think he's an idiot for pandering to religion like this. Conservatism needs to appeal to reason, and that means embracing evidence and science, not religion and superstition.
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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Also the separation of religious authority and civil authority is a Judeo-Christian idea as well.
    Source?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Source?
    The history of Europe. Church and state were interdependent, but the church and state were never THE SAME in Christendom. That's not true in many other parts of the world--the Islamic world, the Indian subcontinent, even China.

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    The history of Europe. Church and state were interdependent, but the church and state were never THE SAME in Christendom. That's not true in many other parts of the world--the Islamic world, the Indian subcontinent, even China.
    That's not exactly true. The Church was the defining institution of the Roman Empire under Constantine. After the fall of the Roman Empire in the 5th century, there was no single powerful secular central government in Europe. Rather, there was a central ecclesiastical power in Rome, the Catholic Church. In this power vacuum, the Church rose to become the dominant power in the West. The Church started expanded in the beginning 10th century, and as secular kingdoms gained power at the same time, there naturally arose the conditions for a power struggle between Church and Kingdom over ultimate authority.

    In essence, the earliest vision of Christendom was a vision of a Christian theocracy, a government founded upon and upholding Christian values, whose institutions are spread through and over with Christian doctrine. In this period, members of the Christian clergy wield political authority. The specific relationship between the political leaders and the clergy varied but, in theory, the national and political divisions were at times subsumed under the leadership of the Catholic Church as an institution. This model of church-state relations was accepted by various Church leaders and political leaders in European history.

    So, to suggest that the state was separate the Church in Europe, implies that each nation held its power independent of the church, and this is certainly not borne out by historical record. Even when Henry VIII broke away from the Catholic Church, it was not to form a separate secular government; rather it was to replace the ecumenical authority of the Catholic Church with that of the Church of England. However, the church was still recognised as the authority behind the monarchy's rule.

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    Shiny Purple Member namvet69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I like Ben Shapiro. But I think he's an idiot for pandering to religion like this. Conservatism needs to appeal to reason, and that means embracing evidence and science, not religion and superstition.
    Does Conservatism think it reasonable to have Trump as leader of the free world? Now, THAT'S some kinda reasonable you got there.

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