Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 71
Thanks Tree7Thanks

Thread: Is God competent or incompetent?

  1. #21
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    2,000
    Thanks
    161

    From
    Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Whoa. That is some disturbingly arrogant claim considering christian scholars contributed to the understanding of jewish scripture centuries before the masoretes.
    While I like the spirit of your reply, I do not agree with your conclusion.

    How did the Christian scholars contribute to the Jewish understanding of Eden, for example, when they changed the moral of that story from the Jewish elevation of man to the Christian fall of man.

    Regards
    DL

  2. #22
    Established Member
    Joined
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    7,083
    Thanks
    306

    From
    Irrelevant
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    While I like the spirit of your reply, I do not agree with your conclusion.

    How did the Christian scholars contribute to the Jewish understanding of Eden, for example, when they changed the moral of that story from the Jewish elevation of man to the Christian fall of man.

    Regards
    DL
    Origen°

    ORIGEN° (c. 184–c. 254 C.E.), Christian biblical critic, exegete, and homilist. Origen was a contemporary of Judah ha-Nasi in Roman Palestine. In his native Christian Alexandrian home, Origen learnt the Psalms in Hebrew and studied Greek and Bible. His father's martyrdom in 202 led Origen to become a teacher first in Alexandria and, after his expulsion by Bishop Demetrius in 213, in Caesarea Maritima. Having encountered personally the Jewish teachers of his time, Jewish customs, and Jewish relations with non-Jews, he interspersed his works with knowledge about Judaism, including non-rabbinic Judaism. As was customary for scholars then, he traveled to Greece, Asia, Syria, Rome, and Arabia to lecture, debate, and study. Famous and at the height of his activities, he was among other Christians imprisoned and tortured under Decius (249–51 C.E.). Set free at the emperor's death, Origen died soon after from the consequences of the ordeal.

    Of this very fertile author's works only a fraction has survived. Its greater part is extant as Rufinus' and Jerome's Latin renditions often adapted to the Latin mind, its smaller part survived in Greek catena. The existing material belongs to two groups, thematic reflections and biblical studies. Of the thematic works, On Principles in four books belongs to Origen's early Alexandrian period. It speculates about God and the heavenly beings, man and the material world, free-will and its consequences, and Holy Scripture. The composition indicates detailed knowledge of Jewish observances, such as phylacteries and the Passover search for leaven, and also of some detailed halakhic rules. In a few cases it supplements the halakhot preserved in the Mishnah, as in regard to the eruv and to carrying on the Sabbath. Best known of the biblical studies, all composed during Origen's final 20 years, is the Hexapla, setting the Hebrew Bible in six columns: Hebrew, in Hebrew and Greek characters, followed by the Greek versions of Aquila, Symmachus, the Septuagint, and Theodotion. For some books there exist supplementary versions, called fifth, sixth, seventh. Comparing the Greek versions meticulously with the Hebrew, Origen marked additions and lacunae in the Greek with graphic symbols borrowed from the Alexandrian grammarians.


    Of his commentaries to almost every book of the Bible, substantial remnants are extant for those on the Psalms, Song of Solomon, John, Matthew, and Romans. Some 279 homilies, mostly on the Hebrew Bible, have survived. Both these genres demonstrate Origen's close attention to the work of the Greek literary critics and of Hellenistic religious traditions. Origen occasionally rebukes Jewish literalism but also defends Jews against abuse. His distinction of three senses of scripture anticipated the Jewish distinction of four senses; in this regard, Jews borrowed from Christians rather than the reverse.


    Hebraists, Christian

    The 12th Century
    During the first Christian millennium the Church produced two substantial Hebraists, *Origen and *Jerome (i.e., Hieronymus), whose biblical commentaries were widely read. These, together with *Philo and *Josephus, constituted the basic sources of information on Hebrew and Jewish matters, their data often being taken over unacknowledged. Of the two streams of transmission one was encyclopedic and the other exegetical. Isidore of Seville (seventh century) drew heavily on Jerome in his Etymologies, which became the standard work of reference, being utilized in particular by Bede (d. 735) and successively by Hrabanus Maurus and the latter's pupil Walafrid Strabo (c. 808–49). The exegetical tradition is likewise one of plagiarization of the standard Christian commentaries on each book of the Bible.

    By the early 12th century this material was being digested, often so succinctly as to reach almost catchword proportions, in the gloss that was becoming a marginal and interlinear accompaniment to manuscripts of the Latin Bible. The gloss also incorporated some matter taken from the encyclopedic stream, and was itself a literary undertaking suggested by the glossation of the standard Western authorities in medicine and law. It seems highly probable that this Christian technique of dealing with voluminous material reckoned to give the "approved" interpretation of an authoritative text was deliberately adopted by *Rashi (1030–1105) as the model for his own succinct running commentaries on the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud.
    Last edited by kingrat; 18th January 2018 at 08:07 AM.

  3. #23
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    2,000
    Thanks
    161

    From
    Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Origen°

    [FONT="]ORIGEN° (c. 184–c. 254 C.E.), Christian biblical critic, exegete, and homilist. Origen was a contemporary of Judah ha-Nasi in Roman Palestine. In his native Christian Alexandrian home, Origen learnt the Psalms in Hebrew and studied Greek and Bible. His father's martyrdom in 202 led Origen to become a teacher first in Alexandria and, after his expulsion by Bishop Demetrius in 213, in Caesarea Maritima. Having encountered personally the Jewish teachers of his time, Jewish customs, and Jewish relations with non-Jews, he interspersed his works with knowledge about Judaism, including non-rabbinic Judaism. As was customary for scholars then, he traveled to Greece, Asia, Syria, Rome, and Arabia to lecture, debate, and study. Famous and at the height of his activities, he was among other Christians imprisoned and tortured under Decius (249–51 C.E.). Set free at the emperor's death, Origen died soon after from the consequences of the ordeal.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]
    Of this very fertile author's works only a fraction has survived. Its greater part is extant as Rufinus' and Jerome's Latin renditions often adapted to the Latin mind, its smaller part survived in Greek catena. The existing material belongs to two groups, thematic reflections and biblical studies. Of the thematic works, On Principles in four books belongs to Origen's early Alexandrian period. It speculates about God and the heavenly beings, man and the material world, free-will and its consequences, and Holy Scripture. The composition indicates detailed knowledge of Jewish observances, such as phylacteries and the Passover search for leaven, and also of some detailed halakhic rules. In a few cases it supplements the halakhot preserved in the Mishnah, as in regard to the eruv and to carrying on the Sabbath. Best known of the biblical studies, all composed during Origen's final 20 years, is the Hexapla, setting the Hebrew Bible in six columns: Hebrew, in Hebrew and Greek characters, followed by the Greek versions of Aquila, Symmachus, the Septuagint, and Theodotion. For some books there exist supplementary versions, called fifth, sixth, seventh. Comparing the Greek versions meticulously with the Hebrew, Origen marked additions and lacunae in the Greek with graphic symbols borrowed from the Alexandrian grammarians.
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="]
    Of his commentaries to almost every book of the Bible, substantial remnants are extant for those on the Psalms, Song of Solomon, John, Matthew, and Romans. Some 279 homilies, mostly on the Hebrew Bible, have survived. Both these genres demonstrate Origen's close attention to the work of the Greek literary critics and of Hellenistic religious traditions. Origen occasionally rebukes Jewish literalism but also defends Jews against abuse. His distinction of three senses of scripture anticipated the Jewish distinction of four senses; in this regard, Jews borrowed from Christians rather than the reverse.

    [/FONT]

    Hebraists, Christian

    The 12th Century
    During the first Christian millennium the Church produced two substantial Hebraists, *Origen and *Jerome (i.e., Hieronymus), whose biblical commentaries were widely read. These, together with *Philo and *Josephus, constituted the basic sources of information on Hebrew and Jewish matters, their data often being taken over unacknowledged. Of the two streams of transmission one was encyclopedic and the other exegetical. Isidore of Seville (seventh century) drew heavily on Jerome in his Etymologies, which became the standard work of reference, being utilized in particular by Bede (d. 735) and successively by Hrabanus Maurus and the latter's pupil Walafrid Strabo (c. 808–49). The exegetical tradition is likewise one of plagiarization of the standard Christian commentaries on each book of the Bible.

    By the early 12th century this material was being digested, often so succinctly as to reach almost catchword proportions, in the gloss that was becoming a marginal and interlinear accompaniment to manuscripts of the Latin Bible. The gloss also incorporated some matter taken from the encyclopedic stream, and was itself a literary undertaking suggested by the glossation of the standard Western authorities in medicine and law. It seems highly probable that this Christian technique of dealing with voluminous material reckoned to give the "approved" interpretation of an authoritative text was deliberately adopted by *Rashi (1030–1105) as the model for his own succinct running commentaries on the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud.
    I see no answer to my question here.

    But if you are to quote the ancients, this quote is more pertinent.

    Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS

    Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

    Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

    "Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

    Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    ------

    You will note that Christians ignore that good Jewish advise, so tell me again how Christianity helped Jews understand things better.

    Regards
    DL

  4. #24
    Established Member
    Joined
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    7,083
    Thanks
    306

    From
    Irrelevant
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    I see no answer to my question here.

    But if you are to quote the ancients, this quote is more pertinent.

    Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS

    Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

    Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

    "Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

    Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    ------

    You will note that Christians ignore that good Jewish advise, so tell me again how Christianity helped Jews understand things better.

    Regards
    DL
    You misunderstand. Origen is a christian exegete and hebraist. The latin vulgate which was largely the work of jerome borrowed heavily from origen.

    But to answer your question -- after the 2nd destruction of the temple by the romans around 70 ad, there were very little rabbinic literature (and rabbis for that matter), which survived (the dead sea scrolls being the only thing I can think of). Subsequent jewish literature used the works of christian scholars as their source. Christian and jewish exegesis are related -- however much ian denies it.

    Just to be clear, I am talking about exegesis, a way by which we understand the text and meaning of scripture. This is not to say that the theology is compatible.

  5. #25
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    2,000
    Thanks
    161

    From
    Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    You misunderstand. Origen is a christian exegete and hebraist. The latin vulgate which was largely the work of jerome borrowed heavily from origen.

    But to answer your question -- after the 2nd destruction of the temple by the romans around 70 ad, there were very little rabbinic literature (and rabbis for that matter), which survived (the dead sea scrolls being the only thing I can think of). Subsequent jewish literature used the works of christian scholars as their source. Christian and jewish exegesis are related -- however much ian denies it.

    Just to be clear, I am talking about exegesis, a way by which we understand the text and meaning of scripture. This is not to say that the theology is compatible.
    I hear you and will just point out that when a definition or meaning/moral of a story is fully reversed, as the Christians did with the Eden story, then the whole of the exegesis you speak of is in question, --- as something is definitely wrong with the new interpretation, --- especially given that the old Jews did not accept it.

    Logic then is our only way of deciding who got it right. The Jews or the Christians.

    Do you see anything of a fall in man becoming as God and gaining a moral sense, which is the end game of the myth of Eden?


    Regards
    DL

  6. #26
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    60,989
    Thanks
    30242

    From
    Vulcan
    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Whoa. That is some disturbingly arrogant claim....
    Considerably less arrogant than Xians "interpreting" Jewish scriptures to justify asserting Jesus was the moshiach.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    .... christian scholars contributed to the understanding of jewish scripture centuries before the masoretes.
    I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Jews created all worthy concepts. Ok.
    That is not what I said.

  7. #27
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    60,989
    Thanks
    30242

    From
    Vulcan
    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Subsequent jewish literature [to the destruction of the 2nd Temple] used the works of christian scholars as their source.
    Jews used the Tanakh and the oral Torah as sources. The oral Torah was eventually written down to prevent its loss. It is still studied today, as it always has been.

  8. #28
    Established Member
    Joined
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    7,083
    Thanks
    306

    From
    Irrelevant
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    I hear you and will just point out that when a definition or meaning/moral of a story is fully reversed, as the Christians did with the Eden story, then the whole of the exegesis you speak of is in question, --- as something is definitely wrong with the new interpretation, --- especially given that the old Jews did not accept it.
    Sorry but you are now moving more in theology rather than textual criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Logic then is our only way of deciding who got it right. The Jews or the Christians.
    Got what right? The translation of jewish ancient scripture?

    The translation of the christian bible today makes use of the masoretic text as well. In any case, the primary source of christian theology comes from the new testament, so there really is no right and wrong as far as theology is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Do you see anything of a fall in man becoming as God and gaining a moral sense, which is the end game of the myth of Eden?

    Regards
    DL
    What about the fall of man in the genesis story?

  9. #29
    Established Member
    Joined
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    7,083
    Thanks
    306

    From
    Irrelevant
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Considerably less arrogant than Xians "interpreting" Jewish scriptures to justify asserting Jesus was the moshiach.
    You mean the way you interpret the trinity to justify some imagined theological defect in christianity? I should have said 'disturbingly arrogant and hypocritical'.

    And, fyi, the people who asserted that jesus was the moshiach WERE jews themselves. Your emotional hand-wringing in this forum is irrelevant to historical facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    I disagree.
    ...despite jewish encyclopedia's claim to the contrary.

    More emotional hand wringing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    That is not what I said.
    You said:

    Not strange at all. Anything of value to Jews came from Judaism to begin with.

    What exactly do you mean by that, hmmmm?

  10. #30
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    60,989
    Thanks
    30242

    From
    Vulcan
    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    You mean the way you interpret the trinity to justify some imagined theological defect in christianity?
    It is only a "theological defect" in comparison to the Tanakh. A trinitarian interpretation of G-d is incompatible with Judaism.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    And, fyi, the people who asserted that jesus was the moshiach WERE jews themselves.
    And they were wrong, just as many other Jews were wrong about other false messiahs.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Your emotional hand-wringing in this forum is irrelevant to historical facts.
    Your personal attacks are irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    ...despite jewish encyclopedia's claim to the contrary.

    More emotional hand wringing.
    Orthodox rabbis beat your Google search. The only "emotional hand-wringing" is yours, every time you make a personal attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    You said:

    Not strange at all. Anything of value to Jews came from Judaism to begin with.

    What exactly do you mean by that, hmmmm?
    I was referring specifically to your "New Testament," which has nothing to teach Jews that is not already known the Judaism.

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Rep. Senator Bob Corker: Trump has "Lack of desire to be competent"
    By HadEnough2 in forum Political Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 24th October 2017, 06:11 AM
  2. Trump is an incompetent baffoon...Discuss.
    By TennesseeRain in forum Political Discussion
    Replies: 146
    Last Post: 16th February 2017, 04:37 AM
  3. Most Incompetent Governor in the Country?
    By HayJenn in forum Political Discussion
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 10th July 2015, 11:18 AM
  4. Ex-Campaign Volunteer Declared Competent For Trial
    By toreyray in forum Political Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 30th October 2008, 02:25 PM
  5. Another Incompetent Bushco Boob
    By namvet69 in forum Political Discussion
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 9th February 2008, 05:51 AM

Tags for this Thread


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed