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Thread: Jesus gave up his weekend...

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blues63 View Post
    What? By torturing and executing your son
    What? God didn't crucify jesus. The romans did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blues63 View Post
    only to make him into a zombie a few days later
    Resurrected. Not a zombie because, guess what? a zombie is still dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blues63 View Post
    in order to forgive the sins of people who cannot even grasp the lack of logic in the exercise?
    How exactly does it lack logic?

    You accept a person's judgment of you because you love that person and forgive for that judgment.

    Seems reasonable to me.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    It's not "self-sacrifice" if you're still walking around afterwards. For Jesus, death wasn't an sacrifice; it was a technicality.
    self-sac·ri·fice
    self ˈsakrəˌfīs/Submit
    noun
    the giving up of one's own interests or wishes in order to help others or to advance a cause.

    Jesus' own wish was given up for a cause -- which is to save others. How is that not a sacrifice?

  3. #43
    Member Idiocracat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    self-sac·ri·fice
    self ˈsakrəˌfīs/Submit
    noun
    the giving up of one's own interests or wishes in order to help others or to advance a cause.

    Jesus' own wish was given up for a cause -- which is to save others. How is that not a sacrifice?
    How did God watching his kid get slaughtered help save others?
    My priest could never answer that sensibly.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiocracat View Post
    How did God watching his kid get slaughtered help save others?
    My priest could never answer that sensibly.
    That's because its a mystery.

    Could god simply have forgiven mankind unilaterally? Sure, if you don't mind second-guessing god. But he chose to do so via the crucifixion, and we, as christians, are confronted with this to contemplate within the context of our own lives.

    Personally, I think it has something to do with man's rejection of god. Man rejected god in the beginning and this rejection resonates throughout the history of the chosen people culminating at the crucifixion.

    Forgiveness, as I understand it, is merely an intrinsic part of the entire process of reconciliation: one party offends another -- the offending party realizes his mistake and owns up to it -- asks forgiveness and promises not to offend again -- and the offended party forgives. I think that the crucifixion should be seen not only as a mechanism for salvation, but also as a necessary part of the entire reconciliation process.

    In this instance, I think the philosophical question of how salvation was effected is less important than what that salvation means to you.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Really? People do it all the time. Fire fighters, policemen, soldiers -- they risk life and limb for the sake of the common good. That is not rational behavior?
    That is not a reasonable analogy. Suicide by cop is a more fitting comparison to the mythical crucifixion of Jesus.

  6. #46
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiocracat View Post
    How did God watching his kid get slaughtered help save others?
    My priest could never answer that sensibly.
    Nobody can. That's why they will simply resort to calling it a "mystery".

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    That is not a reasonable analogy. Suicide by cop is a more fitting comparison to the mythical crucifixion of Jesus.
    Except it wasn't suicide nor is there any circumstance that would construe it as suicide.

    A cop, for whatever reason(s) he or she decided to be a cop, is tasked to uphold the law and protecting the people living within that law. A cop, therefore, puts life and limb on the line for the purpose of a cause or principle. If a cop dies in the performance of his duties as a cop, it's not suicide.

    God's foreknowledge doesn't restrict man's free will. And jesus' crucifixion is man' judgment of him. He therefore, didn't commit suicide.

    Clearly, your analogy fails miserably.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    Nobody can. That's why they will simply resort to calling it a "mystery".
    It's the most logical and honest thing to say. No one (except one or two members in this forum), has the arrogance to claim that he knows what god is thinking.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Except it wasn't suicide nor is there any circumstance that would construe it as suicide.
    So then, according to kingrat, Jesus had no choice in the matter. He didn't concede to voluntarily become a blood sacrifice. He was merely murdered.

    And how do mere mortals murder an immortal God? Well... That's a mystery.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    So then, according to kingrat, Jesus had no choice in the matter.
    Of course he had a choice. And he chose to be subjected to crucifixion.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    He didn't concede to voluntarily become a blood sacrifice.
    Of course it was voluntary. He allowed himself to be crucified for a benefit other than his own.

    In fact, the voluntary act took place when jesus was incarnated, hence allowed himself to be subjected to the human condition for the purpose of revealing a fundamental theological truth.

    But why stop there? The crucifixion became a necessity from the moment man rejected god in the very beginning. And while we can not suppose to know what god intends, we couldn't possibly deny free will since to effect man's salvation is just as plausible as to not effect it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    He was merely murdered.
    It is not murder, if one were to concede that rome indeed had authority to carry out that sentence. The question right now is whether rome had authority over god -- which is what the trial before pilate was all about.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    And how do mere mortals murder an immortal God? Well... That's a mystery.
    Sorry, but the mystery here is the incarnation. If you concede that jesus is god incarnate, then it would be a simple matter to murder him, as the new testament narrated.

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