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Thread: Simple question.

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    For arguments sake, say it's figured that in nothingness, there's a unique strange energy in a different dimension that comes to ours via a bang to create matter.

    So my question is, "Now what?"
    That 'dimension' would itself require a cause.

  2. #162
    Junior Member Slartibartfast's Avatar
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    So in different dimensions, how and where did the energy or matter come from or to be in existence for it to be there?

    Doesn't matter how many dimensions and claims where things came from are made; if it's said, "Ah ha, it came from dimension number 26", then how or where did the energy or matter develop, come about, come into existence in dimension number 26? From yet another source?

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    Junior Member Slartibartfast's Avatar
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    I can imagine scientists that study this subject get rather dizzy by going round in circles!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Be snarky if you like. It is a serious question, and has a purpose. I am attempting to establish that all of us, theist, and atheist alike, have the same basic concepts of reality. Do we exist in a causal universe?
    The ultimately problem is that you either have a finite chain of causality in which case you have the cause without a cause, or primus movens. You can interpose God as a causal event for that, but you could just as well ask what caused God. Or you can have an infinite chain of events, its turtles all the way down, baby!

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    Junior Member Slartibartfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by publius3 View Post
    The ultimately problem is that you either have a finite chain of causality in which case you have the cause without a cause, or primus movens. You can interpose God as a causal event for that, but you could just as well ask what caused God. Or you can have an infinite chain of events, its turtles all the way down, baby!
    ...and the start of this infinite chain is.......

  6. #166
    Senior Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_nihilo

    Basic arguments for and against are presented in the article. Personally, I am not sure that one assumption is as good as the other - but I am not sure that it is not, either. Part of the problem is the human mind's inability to conceive of absolute nothingness, and at the other end of the spectrum absolute infinitude.

    I intend to do some more reading when I have some time to really dig into it, but it is not - contrary to the thread title - a simple question.
    the bolded part!
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey

  7. #167
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by publius3 View Post
    The ultimately problem is that you either have a finite chain of causality in which case you have the cause without a cause, or primus movens. You can interpose God as a causal event for that, but you could just as well ask what caused God. Or you can have an infinite chain of events, its turtles all the way down, baby!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

    Thanks from publius3

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    So in different dimensions, how and where did the energy or matter come from or to be in existence for it to be there?

    Doesn't matter how many dimensions and claims where things came from are made; if it's said, "Ah ha, it came from dimension number 26", then how or where did the energy or matter develop, come about, come into existence in dimension number 26? From yet another source?
    Correct.

    The conundrum is better illustrated in terms of thermodynamic systems. The boundaries of thermodynamic systems are arbitrary so one can make it as big or as small as possible. If energy is free to go in or out of your thermodynamic system, it is an open system hence the laws of thermodynamics do not apply. Clearly, one cannot have an infinite number of systems interacting with one another because then the laws of thermodynamics would be superfluous. Why state a law governing physical systems if such a law never applies in the first place?

    So, one merely makes the boundaries bigger until such time as the system becomes closed and observe its behavior from there. In physical cosmology, this is akin to positing extra dimensions (like string) or objects with 'special' qualities like lambda or dark matter. But to do so, one necessarily needs to posit something outside the system acting as a prime mover, or first cause which is an uncaused cause, or the bearer of sufficient reason. After all, the laws of inertia and conservation would not allow for such a system to spontaneously create itself.

    This prime mover, or this uncaused cause, or the bearer of sufficient reason, we call god.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by publius3 View Post
    The ultimately problem is that you either have a finite chain of causality in which case you have the cause without a cause, or primus movens. You can interpose God as a causal event for that, but you could just as well ask what caused God.
    Positing an uncaused cause (which is god) and then asking what cause god would be an illogical exercise.

    Quote Originally Posted by publius3 View Post
    Or you can have an infinite chain of events, its turtles all the way down, baby!
    You can, if you do not mind believing in something utterly illogical.

    If the cause of something resides at the end of an infinite causal chain, then the causal chain will never reach this thing hence nothing could exist.

    Aristotle hinted on this in his final cause, kant reiterated it in his critique of pure reason and the scientific method is founded on this idea -- that for every event, there exists a cause for it to be so.

    This phrase was originally meant to discredit theology, but since the discovery of the big bang, it now demonstrates how utterly untenable the atheist position really is.
    Last edited by kingrat; 8th March 2018 at 07:37 PM.

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