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Thread: Simple question.

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Yep. I didn't know that phrase before now, but that's how I see it.
    I'll get to my proposal in a minute. Wanna see if we can't get Kallie on the same page as the rest of us.
    Thanks from Babba and Madeline

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    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    It's an interesting question. Look at any event, and generally you can pick out a cause. Why did it rain today? It was caused by evaporation and wind patterns. So, what caused evaporation and wind patterns? Why, heating and cooling in the atmosphere. What caused heating and cooling in the atmosphere? The sun, wind currents, ocean currents. What caused the sun?

    Now, that's a bit more complex, isn't it?

    and what caused life to begin and then evolve into us?

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It's an interesting question. Look at any event, and generally you can pick out a cause. Why did it rain today? It was caused by evaporation and wind patterns. So, what caused evaporation and wind patterns? Why, heating and cooling in the atmosphere. What caused heating and cooling in the atmosphere? The sun, wind currents, ocean currents. What caused the sun?

    Now, that's a bit more complex, isn't it?

    and what caused life to begin and then evolve into us?
    It had to be natural. Because in a causal universe, no supernatural entity could interact with the universe. Such interaction, by definition would be a-causal, making the universe a-causal, and rendering all of the laws of physics as we know them meaningless. Thus there is no room for God, as theists envision him.

    At best, one could argue in favour of a deistic God - one that "nudged" the singularity which, then, expanded into the causal universe in which we exist, and then toddled off. However, that God could, thereafter, never interact with the universe without destroying it.
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  4. #14
    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    It had to be natural. Because in a causal universe, no supernatural entity could interact with the universe. Such interaction, by definition would be a-causal, making the universe a-causal, and rendering all of the laws of physics as we know them meaningless. Thus there is no room for God, as theists envision him.

    At best, one could argue in favour of a deistic God - one that "nudged" the singularity which, then, expanded into the causal universe in which we exist, and then toddled off. However, that God could, thereafter, never interact with the universe without destroying it.
    Unless god is the answer to the question of what caused life to come from non living chemicals in the first place. Maybe the creator is the cause.

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Unless god is the answer to the question of what caused life to come from non living chemicals in the first place. Maybe the creator is the cause.
    Except, by the time life formed on this planet, the universe was already billions of years old. Thus for God to have caused life to to begin would requite either:

    A - God is a natural entity existing within the physical universe, meaning it should be possible to observe,verify, and measure it, or
    B - God is supernatural, and his causing life to form was an a-causal event, breaking down the causal nature of the universe, and destroying it.

    You cannot get past the universe being causal any time after the Big Bang. No supernatural events are possible from that moment, without destroying the universe. We either exist in a causal universe, or we don't. A causal universe has no room for a-causal events.
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  6. #16
    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Except, by the time life formed on this planet, the universe was already billions of years old. Thus for God to have caused life to to begin would requite either:

    A - God is a natural entity existing within the physical universe, meaning it should be possible to observe,verify, and measure it, or
    B - God is supernatural, and his causing life to form was an a-causal event, breaking down the causal nature of the universe, and destroying it.

    You cannot get past the universe being causal any time after the Big Bang. No supernatural events are possible from that moment, without destroying the universe. We either exist in a causal universe, or we don't. A causal universe has no room for a-causal events.
    Humans cause things to happen all the time.

    Why couldn't an intelligence higher than ours have caused events to have happened in the past? The Big Bang sounds a lot to me like the Biblical explanation of creation, "Let there be light!"

    God doesn't have to be supernatural. He/she/they could be quite natural, and there doesn't have to be just one. There could be many. We humans just don't know the nature of god or the gods. We don't even know if there are gods at all.

  7. #17
    Senior Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Humans cause things to happen all the time.

    Why couldn't an intelligence higher than ours have caused events to have happened in the past? The Big Bang sounds a lot to me like the Biblical explanation of creation, "Let there be light!"

    God doesn't have to be supernatural. He/she/they could be quite natural, and there doesn't have to be just one. There could be many. We humans just don't know the nature of god or the gods. We don't even know if there are gods at all.
    We might not know for sure, yet all existing evidence points towards no.

    Your assertion would also allow for the reality that the universe is nothing but a charm on a bracelet around the neck of a giant cat, earthquakes happening when the cat sneezes... but i guess we all agree that this is not very likely to be true.

  8. #18
    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    We might not know for sure, yet all existing evidence points towards no.

    Your assertion would also allow for the reality that the universe is nothing but a charm on a bracelet around the neck of a giant cat, earthquakes happening when the cat sneezes... but i guess we all agree that this is not very likely to be true.
    Or, we could all be living in a giant video game.

    But, that's not likely to be true either.

  9. #19
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Humans cause things to happen all the time.
    Yes, we do. And we exist within the confines of the causal physical universe. Thus any actions that we take fall within the confines of the causal universe, and are part of a causal chain, thus do not conflict with the physical laws of that universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Why couldn't an intelligence higher than ours have caused events to have happened in the past? The Big Bang sounds a lot to me like the Biblical explanation of creation, "Let there be light!"

    God doesn't have to be supernatural. He/she/they could be quite natural, and there doesn't have to be just one. There could be many. We humans just don't know the nature of god or the gods. We don't even know if there are gods at all.
    Great! Now that we have dispensed with the silliness of a Supernatural God, I will await the objective, verifiable evidence of this God that exists within the known universe.

  10. #20
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Except, by the time life formed on this planet, the universe was already billions of years old. Thus for God to have caused life to to begin would requite either:

    A - God is a natural entity existing within the physical universe, meaning it should be possible to observe,verify, and measure it, or
    B - God is supernatural, and his causing life to form was an a-causal event, breaking down the causal nature of the universe, and destroying it.

    You cannot get past the universe being causal any time after the Big Bang. No supernatural events are possible from that moment, without destroying the universe. We either exist in a causal universe, or we don't. A causal universe has no room for a-causal events.
    C- we live in a causal universe. It was created by God but God does not live in it. God exists outside of it and is not subject to its natural internal laws. We live in a causal universe. God does not.

    You state that God causing life to form is an a-causal event. Then base the conclusion on that premise. That premise is unsound.

    If God caused life to form then that is a causal universe. Not a-causal. As evidenced by the sentence itself God CAUSED...

    The creator of the universe is not IN the universe. They are not subject to the laws of their creation.

    If I make a computer network that follows absolute rules, I myself am not subject to those rules. I made them. I can change them. I can defy them. I can circumvent them once or twice when I want to to produce a desired effect and then back off and let the process resume. All the laws of the program would still be absolute - within the program.

    But Im not in the program. Im in my living room. I made the program.

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