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  1. #21
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Or, we could all be living in a giant video game.

    But, that's not likely to be true either.
    No, but if it was, what is the likelihood we would know it?

    I once conceived of a story in which something similar was the case ... the universe (as we know it) was a simulation created for some incomprehensible purpose by beings from another universe/dimension. I never really fleshed that part out, because the whole point of the story was that someone figured that out and was manipulating the program while still being part of it - and only at the end of the story did everyone figure out that was where his power came from.

    Shades of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - either: 1) if we ever figure out what the universe is and what it is for, it will immediately disappear and be instantly replaced by something even more inexplicable; or 2) this has already happened.

  2. #22
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    C- we live in a causal universe. It was created by G-d but G-d does not live in it. G-d exists outside of it and is not subject to its natural internal laws. We live in a causal universe. G-d does not.
    From a Jewish point of view, G-d is everywhere; but existing apart / separate from the causal universe, He is - as you say - not subject to its natural laws, having made them to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    If I make a computer network that follows absolute rules, I myself am not subject to those rules. I made them. I can change them. I can defy them. I can circumvent them once or twice when I want to to produce a desired effect and then back off and let the process resume. All the laws of the program would still be absolute - within the program.

    But Iím not in the program. Iím in my living room. I made the program.
    Now imagine if you were part of the program, yet became aware you were in a program, and learned how to manipulate it. Even more, you could learn how to manipulate it without being noticed.

    Come to think of it, this is kind of like the character Jane in Orson Scott Card's Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Humans cause things to happen all the time.

    Why couldn't an intelligence higher than ours have caused events to have happened in the past? The Big Bang sounds a lot to me like the Biblical explanation of creation, "Let there be light!"

    God doesn't have to be supernatural. He/she/they could be quite natural, and there doesn't have to be just one. There could be many. We humans just don't know the nature of god or the gods. We don't even know if there are gods at all.
    We could be a micro-organism within a greater organism.
    If ya asked me, I'd say we were cancer.

  4. #24
    Senior Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Humans cause things to happen all the time.

    Why couldn't an intelligence higher than ours have caused events to have happened in the past? The Big Bang sounds a lot to me like the Biblical explanation of creation, "Let there be light!"

    God doesn't have to be supernatural. He/she/they could be quite natural, and there doesn't have to be just one. There could be many. We humans just don't know the nature of god or the gods. We don't even know if there are gods at all.
    Actually.. quite contrary...
    There was no light after the big bang for a moment still.. like 400, 000 years approximately.

    At least, to be more accurate, photons were not able to escape the nebular fog that was the result of the big bang, since it permanently bumped into other particles, so there was no visible light to be seen in the universe for the first brief 400k years.

  5. #25
    Senior Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    From a Jewish point of view, G-d is everywhere; but existing apart / separate from the causal universe, He is - as you say - not subject to its natural laws, having made them to begin with.


    Now imagine if you were part of the program, yet became aware you were in a program, and learned how to manipulate it. Even more, you could learn how to manipulate it without being noticed.

    Come to think of it, this is kind of like the character Jane in Orson Scott Card's Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide.
    I will always have the question why an almighty, non-causal deity, in who's power it lies to do whatever.. would then decide to create a physical universe now all of a sudden (while it's own existence is non-physical (where did s/he even get the concept of physicality from ?)).. and create said universe within a stringent set of "natural" laws ( whereas those laws were created by the god entity, and therefore defined, not natural at all).

    It just strikes me as odd that if i were almighty, that i would put all such stringent constraints onto my creations. Why ? If i can do whatever i want, why would i not have some rivers contain Merlot already, if i know i want to have some made out of grapes at some point anyways ?

  6. #26
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    C- we live in a causal universe. It was created by God but God does not live in it. God exists outside of it and is not subject to its natural internal laws. We live in a causal universe. God does not.

    You state that God causing life to form is an a-causal event. Then base the conclusion on that premise. That premise is unsound.
    It is absolutely not unsound. Any event that is not part of a causal chain is, by definition, a-causal. That's kind of how it works. It's a given. Therefore, if God "reaches in" to make something happen, then it is not part of the causal chain, and is, therefore, a-causal. Q.E.D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    If God caused life to form then that is a causal universe. Not a-causal. As evidenced by the sentence itself “God CAUSED...”
    That's not how causality works. Let's go back to the definition of a causal universe shall we? A causal universe is one in which, at a macroscopic level, events are caused by previous events in accordance with physical laws. a causally valid event is, therefore, part of a chain of events stretching back to the Big Bang.

    God "reaching in" and "creating life" is 1) not in accordance with the physical laws of the universe, and 2) not an event that is part of a chain reaching back to the Big Bang. Hence it is, by definition, an a-causal event. An a-causal event cannot occur in a causal universe. it can only occur in an a-causal universe. That is just how causality works. To insist that "God is different" is simply choosing to ignore science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    The creator of the universe is not IN the universe. They are not subject to the laws of their creation.
    This isn't about the rules that "The Creator" is subject to. it is about the rules that the universe is subject to. A causal system collapses when an a-causal event is introduced into it. That's just how it is. There can be no God "outside" the universe interacting with the universe, without causing the universe to collapse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    If I make a computer network that follows absolute rules, I myself am not subject to those rules. I made them. I can change them. I can defy them. I can circumvent them once or twice when I want to to produce a desired effect and then back off and let the process resume. All the laws of the program would still be absolute - within the program.

    But I’m not in the program. I’m in my living room. I made the program.
    Sure you can enter new commands. However, if that computer is programmed only to accept new commands that derive from previous commands, and you attempt to brute force a new command into the programming, the program will collapse, due to a corruption of the programming. That isn't about your limitations. It is about the limitations of the program. That's what you are not understanding.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 27th February 2018 at 06:20 PM.

  7. #27
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiocracat View Post
    If ya asked me, I'd say we were cancer.
    Or perhaps Capricorn?
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  8. #28
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    I will always have the question why an almighty, non-causal deity, in who's power it lies to do whatever.. would then decide to create a physical universe now all of a sudden (while it's own existence is non-physical (where did s/he even get the concept of physicality from ?)).. and create said universe within a stringent set of "natural" laws (whereas those laws were created by the g-d entity, and therefore defined, not natural at all).
    I suppose that is a fair enough question. But then again, I also suppose that if I was omniscient, it would make sense.
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  9. #29
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Any event that is not part of a causal chain is, by definition, a-causal.
    Would that not be true of the Big Bang itself, however?

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    A causal system collapses when an a-causal event is introduced into it. That's just how it is. There can be no G-d "outside" the universe interacting with the universe, without causing the universe to collapse.

    Sure you can enter new commands. However, if that computer is programmed only to accept new commands that derive from previous commands, and you attempt to brute force a new command into the programming, the program will collapse, due to a corruption of the programming. That isn't about your limitations. It is about the limitations of the program. That's what you are not understanding.
    However, if the deity under discussion is truly omniscient and omnipotent, that would not be a problem, as all variables could be accounted for.

  10. #30
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Would that not be true of the Big Bang itself, however?
    It would. and we don't yet know what caused the Big Bang. However, simply admitting "I don't know" and exploring, researching, and investigating to learn is infinitely more productive than simply asserting "God did it", particularly when one understands that if God did do it, it was the last thing that he was ever capable of doing in a causal universe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    However, if the deity under discussion is truly omniscient and omnipotent, that would not be a problem, as all variables could be accounted for.
    Not possible, because of the Heisenberg principle. Even an omnipotent god cannot do what is impossible: create a square circle, make a rock that he cannot lift, or...

    ...predict the unpredictable. The Heisenberg Principle, renders it impossible to predict the course of events the further away from the initial advent of a chain.

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