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Thread: Simple question.

  1. #31
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Or, we could all be living in a giant video game.

    But, that's not likely to be true either.
    Don't go giving certain of our posters any ideas, you know how susceptible they are to Conspiracy Theories......

  2. #32
    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No, but if it was, what is the likelihood we would know it?

    I once conceived of a story in which something similar was the case ... the universe (as we know it) was a simulation created for some incomprehensible purpose by beings from another universe/dimension. I never really fleshed that part out, because the whole point of the story was that someone figured that out and was manipulating the program while still being part of it - and only at the end of the story did everyone figure out that was where his power came from.

    Shades of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - either: 1) if we ever figure out what the universe is and what it is for, it will immediately disappear and be instantly replaced by something even more inexplicable; or 2) this has already happened.
    The purpose of such a simulation could be the same as a purpose of a flight simulator: to train us to live decent lives in the real world. We're just in training now, so we can see the results of wars and abuse of others. Once we're in the eternal world where life is real, then we'll know how to avoid such things...

    ...well, it may take more than one trial in the simulator.
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey

  3. #33
    Senior Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No, but if it was, what is the likelihood we would know it?

    I once conceived of a story in which something similar was the case ... the universe (as we know it) was a simulation created for some incomprehensible purpose by beings from another universe/dimension. I never really fleshed that part out, because the whole point of the story was that someone figured that out and was manipulating the program while still being part of it - and only at the end of the story did everyone figure out that was where his power came from.

    Shades of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - either: 1) if we ever figure out what the universe is and what it is for, it will immediately disappear and be instantly replaced by something even more inexplicable; or 2) this has already happened.
    In any case.. thanks for all the fish!
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    It had to be natural.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Because in a causal universe, no supernatural entity could interact with the universe.
    Nothing in our understanding of causation remotely suggests this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Such interaction, by definition would be a-causal, making the universe a-causal, and rendering all of the laws of physics as we know them meaningless. Thus there is no room for God, as theists envision him.
    Is there even such a word? Where is this word a-causal defined in that manner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    At best, one could argue in favour of a deistic God - one that "nudged" the singularity which, then, expanded into the causal universe in which we exist, and then toddled off. However, that God could, thereafter, never interact with the universe without destroying it.
    "Nudge", as you use the word in that sentence, is causation -- an act that brings something into existence.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Except, by the time life formed on this planet, the universe was already billions of years old. Thus for God to have caused life to to begin would requite either:

    A - God is a natural entity existing within the physical universe, meaning it should be possible to observe,verify, and measure it, or
    B - God is supernatural, and his causing life to form was an a-causal event, breaking down the causal nature of the universe, and destroying it.

    You cannot get past the universe being causal any time after the Big Bang. No supernatural events are possible from that moment, without destroying the universe. We either exist in a causal universe, or we don't. A causal universe has no room for a-causal events.
    Why do you keep saying all these when everybody knows black holes (or gravitational singularities) exist in your 'causal' universe? Do you see any evidence that the universe would be destroyed soon?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    We might not know for sure, yet all existing evidence points towards no.
    And what evidences are you referring to, hmmm? The truth is, all evidence point toward yes.

  7. #37
    Senior Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Why do you keep saying all these when everybody knows black holes (or gravitational singularities) exist in your 'causal' universe? Do you see any evidence that the universe would be destroyed soon?
    Well, agreed that his argumentation is logically flawed in a lot of ways.. yet black holes are explainable with the given laws of physics, and fit into the causal concept.

  8. #38
    Senior Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    And what evidences are you referring to, hmmm? The truth is, all evidence point toward yes.
    There is NO evidence whatsoever for the existence of god.
    Actually the LACK of evidence is the whole concept of religion, god INTENDED to not have any prof of his existence, as per those claiming things like "the power of faith is coming from the absence of evidence"..

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    Actually.. quite contrary...
    There was no light after the big bang for a moment still.. like 400, 000 years approximately.

    At least, to be more accurate, photons were not able to escape the nebular fog that was the result of the big bang, since it permanently bumped into other particles, so there was no visible light to be seen in the universe for the first brief 400k years.
    That is what the inflation theory is supposed to answer.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    It is absolutely not unsound. Any event that is not part of a causal chain is, by definition, a-causal. That's kind of how it works. It's a given. Therefore, if God "reaches in" to make something happen, then it is not part of the causal chain, and is, therefore, a-causal. Q.E.D.
    You already admitted that god 'nudged' the singularity to create the universe, did you not? By definition, god is part of that causal chain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    That's not how causality works. Let's go back to the definition of a causal universe shall we? A causal universe is one in which, at a macroscopic level, events are caused by previous events in accordance with physical laws. a causally valid event is, therefore, part of a chain of events stretching back to the Big Bang.
    ...at which point, no physical laws (as we understand them) exists. So, you have an event that has no cause, if you are so intent on negating that which is so intuitively necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    God "reaching in" and "creating life" is 1) not in accordance with the physical laws of the universe, and 2) not an event that is part of a chain reaching back to the Big Bang. Hence it is, by definition, an a-causal event. An a-causal event cannot occur in a causal universe. it can only occur in an a-causal universe. That is just how causality works. To insist that "God is different" is simply choosing to ignore science.
    I do not know where you are getting your ideas but they simply aren't true.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/causation

    Definition of causation
    1 a : the act or process of causing the role of heredity in the causation of cancer
    b : the act or agency which produces an effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    This isn't about the rules that "The Creator" is subject to. it is about the rules that the universe is subject to. A causal system collapses when an a-causal event is introduced into it. That's just how it is. There can be no God "outside" the universe interacting with the universe, without causing the universe to collapse.
    Again, there are black holes where the physical laws, as we know them, do not govern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Sure you can enter new commands. However, if that computer is programmed only to accept new commands that derive from previous commands, and you attempt to brute force a new command into the programming, the program will collapse, due to a corruption of the programming. That isn't about your limitations. It is about the limitations of the program. That's what you are not understanding.
    Example please.

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