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Thread: Simple question.

  1. #51
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    Actually the LACK of evidence [for the existence of G-d] is the whole concept of religion, g-d INTENDED to not have any prof of his existence, as per those claiming things like "the power of faith is coming from the absence of evidence"..
    While there is a class of religion of which this true, it is not true of most religions.

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    I am not suggesting, of course, that we replace science with "G-d did it," which would be silly in itself. The problem is that you would ultimately end up with an infinite regression of causes, which are themselves also effects of still more causes. You are suggesting a causal universe has always existed, has never not-existed, with neither beginning nor end, including of course all matter in it as well. It is just sort of "there" without any cause, which would render it a-causal to begin with (so to speak).
    I'm not suggesting any such thing. I have not, and do not, presume to assert, with any certainty, how the universe came into being. I can only draw conclusions of what is, and is not possible, based on the nature of the real universe. As the real universe is causal, it is not possible for a-causal events to occur without collapsing the causal universe.

  3. #53
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    I'm not suggesting any such thing. I have not, and do not, presume to assert, with any certainty, how the universe came into being. I can only draw conclusions of what is, and is not possible, based on the nature of the real universe.
    Yet that is the logical result of the things you have asserted. (And some religions hold to that, too.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    As the real universe is causal...
    ... to the best of our ability to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    ... it is not possible for a-causal events to occur without collapsing the causal universe.
    What would be an "a-causal" event? Would not an "event" itself be caused?

  4. #54
    Senior Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    While there is a class of religion of which this true, it is not true of most religions.
    Always appreciate your corrections and insights... which are valid. I sure do not spend a lot of (if any) time exploring the differences.

    I'm just an atheist... who sees certain inherited equal attributes across all religions, which is why I reject them, going with science.

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Yet that is the logical result of the things you have asserted. (And some religions hold to that, too.)


    ... to the best of our ability to understand.


    What would be an "a-causal" event? Would not an "event" itself be caused?
    Hence my handy little diagram:


  6. #56
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    I'm just an atheist... who sees certain inherited equal attributes across all religions, which is why I reject them, going with science.
    I reject neither. Even from a religious perspective, G-d created the phenomenal universe, which means it is appropriate to study it. Studying science is not anti-religion.

  7. #57
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    That does not mean the "supernatural event" had no cause. It simply would mean that its trail back to a first cause (being "G-d") is more direct than the rest of the events.

    BTW ... did you draw that yourself? If so, the "Boom!" is quite good ... reminds me of the 1960s Batman TV show.

  8. #58
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    That does not mean the "supernatural event" had no cause. It simply would mean that its trail back to a first cause (being "G-d") is more direct than the rest of the events.

    BTW ... did you draw that yourself? If so, the "Boom!" is quite good ... reminds me of the 1960s Batman TV show.
    I'm actually borrowing these diagrams from someone to help illustrate my points. That being said, yeah...that's not how a causal universe works. A-causal events are simply not possible in a causal universe. And the causal universe only goes back as far as the big Bang. Even if there were something "before' the big bang, in order to be part of the causal chain an event would have to trace back through the Big Bang to that "something" in order to not disrupt the causal system. That is how a causal system works. You can't just "skip over" the chain. Skipping over the chain is exactly what makes an a-causal event an a-causal event.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 28th February 2018 at 11:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Here. Maybe these illustrations will help you, Kingrat.




    An a-causal event - one not governed or operating by the laws of cause and effect - cannot occur in a causal universe, as a systenm cannot be, simultaneously causal, and a-causal. Thus, any a-causal event would break a causal universe.
    Actually, no. That is not how cause and effect operate in reality.

    What you are trying vainly to describe in that ridiculous diagram is a deterministic reality -- where a particular cause can only have a particular effect.

    Quantum mechanics says that reality is probabilistic -- where a particular cause has a number of probable effects defined by a wave function.

    What that means, in terms of your diagram, is that the nodes of your squiggly branches are scientifically indeterminate. That is the essence of the thought experiment of shroedinger's cat -- that at that point where the probability of a number of effects diverge from a particular cause, schroedinger's cat is both alive and dead at the same time.

    Understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    And they are causal events. Your point? Are you suggesting that black holes just "bamfed" into existence out of nowhere?
    Was the train of logic too fast for you?

    Black holes are gravitational singularities -- the exact same thing that went bang in any big bang cosmological theory you'd care to refer to. That means, the breakdown of physical laws occur within a black hole's event horizon in exactly the same way it did prior to the big bang.

    You therefore have an 'a-causal' phenomenon existing within your causal universe and yet, we aren't anticipating our causal universe being destroyed in the foreseeable future, are we?

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