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Thread: The Last Temptation of Christ

  1. #11
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    So, betrayal is justified by some secret gnosis only the betrayer is party to, hmmmm?

    Jesus was meant to die on the cross so one might as well facilitate it, eh? This argument fails miserably in light of free will -- not to mention culpability.
    That is not Gnosis. It is following the Christian myth and that is why you did not try to explain why the other apostle let Judas go even when knowing what he was going to do.

    As to Jesus not being supposed to die.

    What is this telling you if not that he was?

    1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzux...layer_embedded

    Regards
    DL

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    That is not Gnosis. It is following the Christian myth and that is why you did not try to explain why the other apostle let Judas go even when knowing what he was going to do.
    Eh? Only in john's gospel did jesus mention to the disciples who betrayed him.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...3&version=NASB

    Jesus Predicts His Betrayal
    21 When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will [c]betray Me.” 22 The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking. 23 There was reclining on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 So Simon Peter *gestured to him, and *said to him, “Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking.” 25 He, leaning back thus on Jesus’ bosom, *said to Him, “Lord, who is it?” 26 Jesus then *answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He *took and *gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus *said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him. 29 For some were supposing, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus was saying to him, “Buy the things we have need of for the feast”; or else, that he should give something to the poor. 30 So after receiving the morsel he went out immediately; and it was night.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    As to Jesus not being supposed to die.

    What is this telling you if not that he was?

    1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzux...layer_embedded

    Regards
    DL
    How many times do I have to tell you before you give yourself leave to understand a simple concept, hmmm?

    God's foreknowledge does not preclude man's free will. And when one acts freely, he is responsible for his actions.

    Unless, of course, that is the secret gnosis you are selling here -- that there is no free will hence no culpability?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Eh? Only in john's gospel did jesus mention to the disciples who betrayed him.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...3&version=NASB

    Jesus Predicts His Betrayal
    21 When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will [c]betray Me.” 22 The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking. 23 There was reclining on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 So Simon Peter *gestured to him, and *said to him, “Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking.” 25 He, leaning back thus on Jesus’ bosom, *said to Him, “Lord, who is it?” 26 Jesus then *answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He *took and *gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus *said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him. 29 For some were supposing, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus was saying to him, “Buy the things we have need of for the feast”; or else, that he should give something to the poor. 30 So after receiving the morsel he went out immediately; and it was night.




    How many times do I have to tell you before you give yourself leave to understand a simple concept, hmmm?

    God's foreknowledge does not preclude man's free will. And when one acts freely, he is responsible for his actions.

    Unless, of course, that is the secret gnosis you are selling here -- that there is no free will hence no culpability?
    There are no secrets in Gnostic Christianity.

    If God pre-ordained a death, he would also have to pre-ordain someone to make that death happen.

    Change any one thing in the future and you change all the conditions in the future.

    Read what you put before this.

    "28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him."

    You understand and can follow the logic trail. Right?

    Do you really think the apostles were so dense that they could not follow what you can?

    Do you think they were that stupid?

    Now look up what that dipped bread was, a sop, and see that it is a show of loyalty and bribe between good friend to seal a bargain.

    Regards
    DL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    There are no secrets in Gnostic Christianity.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism#Etymology

    Gnosis refers to knowledge based on personal experience or perception. In a religious context, gnosis is mystical or esoteric knowledge based on direct participation with the divine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    If God pre-ordained a death, he would also have to pre-ordain someone to make that death happen.

    Change any one thing in the future and you change all the conditions in the future.
    So your version of gnosticism would have everyone believe that free will does not exist?

    Omniscience is foreknowledge, not preordination. God's foreknowledge does not restrict man's free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Read what you put before this.

    "28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him."

    You understand and can follow the logic trail. Right?

    Do you really think the apostles were so dense that they could not follow what you can?

    Do you think they were that stupid?
    You are speculating something that is not in the text, and quite liberally at that -- which is not really surprising coming from gnostic ideas.

    And based on this speculation, you conclude that judas' betrayal was not only excusable, it is integral to jesus' mission and mankind's salvation as a whole.

    And you're still wondering why gnosticism died out sometime in the second century?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Now look up what that dipped bread was, a sop, and see that it is a show of loyalty and bribe between good friend to seal a bargain.

    Regards
    DL
    I'm not inclined to go on a fool's errand on your say so.

  5. #15
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    Then stay on the wrong track.

    Regards
    DL

  6. #16
    Veteran Member Dangermouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    So, betrayal is justified by some secret gnosis only the betrayer is party to, hmmmm?

    Jesus was meant to die on the cross so one might as well facilitate it, eh? This argument fails miserably in light of free will -- not to mention culpability.
    The "betrayal" is the central device in the plot, to move the story along. It doesn't work otherwise.

  7. #17
    Veteran Member carpe diem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    I think that Christians and Catholics dislike this movie because it rightly shows Judas as Jesus' most trusted apostle and confidant.

    Those creeds hate anything that has Jews look good.
    They prefer to hate the Jews instead of loving them, even though the roots of Christianity are pure Jewish.

    We stole their God but cast the Jews aside. Jewish persecution, IMO, is the Christian conscience trying to tell all Christians that they should return to the older and wiser Jewish way of looking at things.

    Christians and Catholics still have a lot to learn from Jews. Of course, they will not admit that fact.



    Regards
    DL
    More ignorance. Christians trust and fully believe God. God declares that the Jews are his chosen people, Christians have strong feelings about Jews because Jesus was of Jewish lineage. Christians do not persecute Jews, there are some (just like in every other situation) that pervert their faith and do terrible things.

    You chose to paint all Christians in a certain manner...I suppose you would take offense if I painted all Liberals as murderers because one chose to shoot conservatives practicing softball...

  8. #18
    Veteran Member carpe diem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    So, betrayal is justified by some secret gnosis only the betrayer is party to, hmmmm?

    Jesus was meant to die on the cross so one might as well facilitate it, eh? This argument fails miserably in light of free will -- not to mention culpability.
    Hardly - God knew his heart and what he would do...He did not make him do it, he allowed it for a much grander purpose.

    The word says "God hardened Pharaohs heart...He did not force his heart to do anything, he simply put him in a place and circumstances where his already bitter and nasty heart would respond exactly the way God knew it would.

    It's described best this way...a pond in late spring with ice still melting at sunrise, the same sun that melts the ice, hardens the clay, based upon their existing characteristics.
    Last edited by carpe diem; 2nd May 2018 at 07:49 AM.

  9. #19
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpe diem View Post
    G-d declares that the Jews are his chosen people, Christians have strong feelings about Jews because Jesus was of Jewish lineage.
    And in fact was Jewish, because his mother was Jewish. (His father was not descended from King David and King Solomon, of course.)

    Quote Originally Posted by carpe diem View Post
    Christians do not persecute Jews, there are some (just like in every other situation) that pervert their faith and do terrible things.
    There is, however, a long history of Xians having done so.

  10. #20
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpe diem View Post
    The word says "G-d hardened Pharaohs heart...He did not force his heart to do anything, he simply put him in a place and circumstances where his already bitter and nasty heart would respond exactly the way G-d knew it would.
    In fact, though, G-d did take away Pharaoh's free will, which is not something He normally does (and in fact may not have done since).

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