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Thread: Muslim Man Encountered with Jesus and Saw Jesus in the Throne of Heaven - Kamran

  1. #41
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    Depends, I suppose, upon whom Ian Jeffrey considers a "real Jew".
    No, I was speaking generically, not universally. Yes, there are Jews who have converted to Xianity, and they are still "real Jews" (assuming, of course, that they were to begin with). But they are not in any sense practicing the Jewish religion.
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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemoWhip View Post
    Therefore, Muslims cannot logically believe in Muhammed.
    I believe (!) they do not. They believe he was a prophet, but not that he was G-d.

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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemoWhip View Post
    It's just as Jews have no status in Christianity either since according to many they believe in the First Coming of Jesus instead of the Second Coming. Others might even dispute that they believe that.
    We (generically) do not believe in any coming of Jesus. He has no status in Judaism whatsoever.
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  4. #44
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemoWhip View Post
    However, not all Jews are against Jesus since some do believe He is the Messiah. Take for example the following great group!

    Jews for Jesus
    Jews are not "against Jesus." "No status" means that, as Judaism goes, he has no significance at all. Had the relationship between Judaism and Xianity not been so contentious over the last 20 centuries, Jews would probably have forgotten him entirely. He is not in any way an entity that is part of Judaism.

    As JFJ being a "great group" ... while any Jewish members remain Jewish, of course, JFJ is not a Jewish organization. It is evangelical Xianity masquerading as a form of Judaism. In fact, the whole movement of Messianic "Judaism" is composed of evangelical Xians pretending that you can believe in Jesus and practice Judaism at the same time. That is impossible, because the two religions are theologically incompatible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Jews do not believe Jesus was a prophet. He has no status in Judaism whatsover.
    Since he spoke prophecy, there's only two logical possibilities from the perspective of Jews or anyone else: he was either a prophet or a false prophet. I think that if his words are recounted accurately in the Gospels, he must logically be a false prophet, since he said that the end would come while some of those who were present were still alive, and it clearly didn't. But, my understanding is that some Jews take the view that he was a prophet, including Rabbi Shmuley Boteach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Jews are not "against Jesus." "No status" means that, as Judaism goes, he has no significance at all. Had the relationship between Judaism and Xianity not been so contentious over the last 20 centuries, Jews would probably have forgotten him entirely. He is not in any way an entity that is part of Judaism.
    In historical terms, he appears to have been a rabbi who wasn't content with what contemporaneous Judaism had to offer. However, he probably didn't view himself as breaking away from Judaism, but rather as reforming it. He insists, for example, that not one jot of the Law will fall away. At some point after his death, his disciples appear to have followed the gentile-pleasing revisions of his teachings by Paul (Saul of Tarsus), and broke with mainstream Judaism. But, you can still see Christianity as a sect of Judaism in the same sense that Mormonism is a sect of Christianity.

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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    Since he spoke prophecy...
    He claimed to speak prophecy. Not the same thing. In any case, he is a non-entity in Judaism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    I think that if his words are recounted accurately in the Gospels, he must logically be a false prophet, since he said that the end would come while some of those who were present were still alive, and it clearly didn't.
    There are plenty of reasons why Jesus was not the moshiach (messiah), that much is certain. Sure, he was a "false prophet," but that did not particularly distinguish him, as there were plenty of others at the time as well. Being a false prophet was a popular thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    But, my understanding is that some Jews take the view that he was a prophet, including Rabbi Shmuley Boteach.
    That is not Boteach's view. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_Jesus He claims, in fact, that Jesus never claimed to the moshiach, but rather that this was added later. The only Jews who take the view that Jesus was a prophet are those who claim he was the moshiach - i.e., the so-called :Messianic Jews" (which includes such organizations as JFJ, mentioned in previous posts). While individuals may be legitimately Jewish, JFJ is not in any sense a Jewish organization, as belief in Jesus is wholly incompatible with Judaism.

  8. #48
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    [Y]ou can still see Christianity as a sect of Judaism....
    Well, no ... it broke off near its inception. The two religions are incompatible with each other.

  9. #49
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No, I was speaking generically, not universally. Yes, there are Jews who have converted to Xianity, and they are still "real Jews" (assuming, of course, that they were to begin with). But they are not in any sense practicing the Jewish religion.

    I agree that Messianic Jews aren't practicing traditional Judaism. Then again, most Christians these days aren't practicing traditional Christianity either.

    Not that "traditional Christianity" has much in common with the religion that Jesus himself practiced.
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