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Thread: Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

  1. #11
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiocracat View Post
    If we evolved from Apes, why are there still apes?
    We were spliced from Apes.
    If the Pilgrims came from Englishmen, why are there still Englishmen?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    I would have said more like immoral, given that God wanted to deny A & E knowledge of everything, as everything is subject to good and evil, but I can accept amoral.

    Regards
    DL
    Good point.

    Unknowingly it might have been lost in translation.

    Immoral fits better in my view, where a powerful figure enjoyed all the benefits of ruling eden, but denied it to commoners, sort of like an absolute monarch.

    Looks also as an allegory of the passage from a society of hunter-gatherers, to one of farmers, as there's a point where eve and adam must spend some time away from each other.

    That would be when they start missing one another and their own desires start kicking in, so they thought, fuck it, let's find a way where we can spend the rest of our nights together.
    Last edited by Paris; 21st May 2018 at 10:09 PM.

  3. #13
    Wawa Skittletits BDBoop's Avatar
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    Well, from what I hear, Adam fell in Eve and begat Cain and Abel.

  4. #14
    Member Arkady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiocracat View Post
    If we evolved from Apes, why are there still apes?
    We may have been spliced from Apes.
    Humans are a type of ape. What happened is that there was a common ancestor of both modern humans and modern apes, which was also a kind of ape. That common ancestor isn't around any more.

    The idea of looking at modern apes and thinking that their existence means we can't have come from a common ancestor would be a bit like figuring that because your cousins are alive you can't share common grandparents with them. It just doesn't make sense.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Loki's Avatar
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    Not to mention Evoulution has been working this whole time.
    Example- the folk whom live in stilt housing off coast of India - they can hold breath for 5 or more minutes and not worry about depth sickness called Benz.
    Nepal folks can stand on the top of the world and not suffer low oxygen sickness.

  6. #16
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    Written 500 years BC

    “The woman looked at the apple and thought how tasty it looked. She thought how wonderful it would be to be as wise and powerful as God... As soon as they ate the apple of knowledge a change came over Adam and Eve. They became unhappy and fearful of God.


    The scientific age.

    “Sir Isaac Newton was an English mathematician and mathematician and physicist who lived from 1642-1727. Newton's Principia, in which he lays out this comprehensive system of organization and develops the mathematical field of calculus, is seen as the key which unlocked the mysteries of the universe, the climax of the strivings of all of the Scientists of the Scientific Revolution. The legend is that Newton discovered Gravity when he saw a falling apple while thinking about the forces of nature.”


    If you believe the scripture is written by God, then you must necessarily accept that it’s written by an author who has already seen the whole universe in time from beginning to end, from an external viewpoint. Not writing from a place IN time.

    So the people and places are just the best way to describe things to a Bronze Age listener. You use examples and descriptions that they can understand.



    "If you believe the scripture is written by God,"

    Those who believe that are fools. They would have to believe that God could only use a story with a talking serpent which no one could logically understand in a literal way.

    Regards
    DL

  7. #17
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post

    The stories of Eden are memories of a lost world, a world when humans had it MUCH easier.
    What makes you think that man would choose the hard way instead of staying in the softer life style?

    You and I likely would not so why do you think the ancients would?

    Regards
    DL

  8. #18
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Good point.

    Unknowingly it might have been lost in translation.

    Immoral fits better in my view, where a powerful figure enjoyed all the benefits of ruling eden, but denied it to commoners, sort of like an absolute monarch.

    Looks also as an allegory of the passage from a society of hunter-gatherers, to one of farmers, as there's a point where eve and adam must spend some time away from each other.

    That would be when they start missing one another and their own desires start kicking in, so they thought, fuck it, let's find a way where we can spend the rest of our nights together.
    I see Eden as a rite of passage story that ends at Gen;3.

    The transition from shepherd to farmer has been attributed to other works like Cane and Abel and the Jacob and Esau story.

    Regards
    DL

  9. #19
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    Well, from what I hear, Adam fell in Eve and begat Cain and Abel.
    Sure, but that was after they were no longer innocent and with their eyes closed. Before that, they were too stupid to even know they were naked and did not know what top do with their sexual body parts.

    Regards
    DL

  10. #20
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    What makes you think that man would choose the hard way instead of staying in the softer life style?

    You and I likely would not so why do you think the ancients would?

    Regards
    DL
    Indeed, no one would voluntarily abandon the easy and enjoyable life of a hunter-gatherer for the hard-scrabble and tough life of early agriculturalists. I thought I had explained why in my post #9, but let me elaborate a bit further. In the late Pleistocene, many human groups were specialized big-game hunters. Across much of Eurasia, for example, you found mammoth-hunters, and they even used mammoth-bones to erect their shelters. But we were so good at hunting mammoths that we drove them into extinction. [Dwarf mammoths survived on Wrangel Island, far above Siberia, until humans finally arrived there ~2800 BC, about the time the ancient Egyptians were building their great pyramids, and promptly drove the cute dwarf mammoths into extinction----they were very easy prey, having never seen humans before.] Many other mega-fauna also went extinct at the end of the Pleistocene.

    So we were FORCED to alter our economic strategies. We had no CHOICE but to start hunting much smaller animals, like speedy gazelles and hard-to-hunt rabbits. We learned how to make traps and how to hunt geese and ducks. We began exploiting plants much more intensively. We did NOT become farmers willingly. It was NOT a conscious choice. We did NOT one day decide, "Gee, maybe we should settle down and become farmers, and start raising crops and keeping livestock."

    An excellent if somewhat dated book on the subject is The Food Crisis in Prehistory: Overpopulation and the Origins of Agriculture, by Professor Mark Nathan Cohen. You can pick it up for a measly $3 on Amazon.

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