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Thread: Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

  1. #21
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Indeed, no one would voluntarily abandon the easy and enjoyable life of a hunter-gatherer for the hard-scrabble and tough life of early agriculturalists. I thought I had explained why in my post #9, but let me elaborate a bit further. In the late Pleistocene, many human groups were specialized big-game hunters. Across much of Eurasia, for example, you found mammoth-hunters, and they even used mammoth-bones to erect their shelters. But we were so good at hunting mammoths that we drove them into extinction. [Dwarf mammoths survived on Wrangel Island, far above Siberia, until humans finally arrived there ~2800 BC, about the time the ancient Egyptians were building their great pyramids, and promptly drove the cute dwarf mammoths into extinction----they were very easy prey, having never seen humans before.] Many other mega-fauna also went extinct at the end of the Pleistocene.

    So we were FORCED to alter our economic strategies. We had no CHOICE but to start hunting much smaller animals, like speedy gazelles and hard-to-hunt rabbits. We learned how to make traps and how to hunt geese and ducks. We began exploiting plants much more intensively. We did NOT become farmers willingly. It was NOT a conscious choice. We did NOT one day decide, "Gee, maybe we should settle down and become farmers, and start raising crops and keeping livestock."

    An excellent if somewhat dated book on the subject is The Food Crisis in Prehistory: Overpopulation and the Origins of Agriculture, by Professor Mark Nathan Cohen. You can pick it up for a measly $3 on Amazon.
    I agree that we had to adapt to natural forces in our evolution. All creatures must. I was seeing it as us not having chosen to being forced by nature to adapt.

    Thanks for confirming that.

    Regards
    DL

  2. #22
    Senior Member Loki's Avatar
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    I don't want to be alarmist, but I see a great a huge population cut happening in the next century.

    Inland glaciers are almost gone now. Huge source of dwindling potable water.

    The storms that result from higher temperatures are worse than what we've seen before, look for new desciptions, biggest, deadliest and so on.

    Pakistan recently had temps in 53 C, sustained.
    That's not a habitual temperature

  3. #23
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I don't want to be alarmist, but I see a great a huge population cut happening in the next century.

    Inland glaciers are almost gone now. Huge source of dwindling potable water.

    The storms that result from higher temperatures are worse than what we've seen before, look for new desciptions, biggest, deadliest and so on.

    Pakistan recently had temps in 53 C, sustained.
    That's not a habitual temperature
    Demographers cannot predict as far ahead as that.

    What they have looks good enough that I do not think as major a shift as you describe will happen.

    Let me give you two things to ponder.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=ezVk1ahRF78

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZPF9tFRYYM&t=22s

    Regards
    DL

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

    Christians see a fall for man in Eden while the Jews see it as where man was elevated.

    I see it as where, thanks to Godís murder by neglect of Adam and Eve, as where God fell. Adam and Eve would have lived much longer if God had not locked away the tree of life.

    Common sense from a simple reading of Genesis, where manís eyes were open, knowing oneself as naked as Gods and developing a moral sense, tells us that it would be seen as good for man and not a fall. They have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

    I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for a murdering God.

    Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue, --- or as Christians do, Original Sin, or as I do with God bringing death to earth with Original Murder?

    Regards
    DL
    Knowledge is neither inherently good nor inherently evil. God imbued man with a rational faculty, so, knowledge itself is not the issue. What the genesis myth is saying is that knowledge without moral restraint leads to man's perdition.

  5. #25
    SPOCK! Puzzling Evidence's Avatar
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    I think that Adam and Eve were already ridding the hobby horse and the forbidden fruit - was a vibrator shaped like the mother Mary! Yes, the snake "gave it" to Eve, who then taught Adam a little trick involving his prostate. God got pissed and kicked them to the curb, yet everyone still gets to knock boots (screw), eye notice...

  6. #26
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Knowledge is neither inherently good nor inherently evil. God imbued man with a rational faculty, so, knowledge itself is not the issue. What the genesis myth is saying is that knowledge without moral restraint leads to man's perdition.
    Morals and any restraints for them come from knowledge.

    You are ignoring the slant of the creation myth.

    You might have a point in the sense that God did not use moral restraint when he murdered A & E by neglect and locking away what would have kept them alive.

    Regards
    DL

  7. #27
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    I still think the story of Adam and Eve is mostly symbolic.

    Not that I doubt there's something about the story that the authors felt important enough to maintain through thousands of years.... Probably after tens of thousands of years of oral traditions.

    God always provides free will, the choice... If it was as simple as a choice to eat the forbidden fruit or not, the consequences of that action were longstanding.

    Raising up from the distinction of animals, to recognize good and evil, just like you can't have the positive without the negative.

  8. #28
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    I think it was a guy named Eddie.

  9. #29
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    It was a SETUP!

  10. #30
    Veteran Member TNVolunteer73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Man is a risen ape, not a fallen angel.
    Actually if Evolution is real Human and Pig DNA are more similar than man and ape.

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