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Thread: Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

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    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

    Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

    Christians see a fall for man in Eden while the Jews see it as where man was elevated.

    I see it as where, thanks to Godís murder by neglect of Adam and Eve, as where God fell. Adam and Eve would have lived much longer if God had not locked away the tree of life.

    Common sense from a simple reading of Genesis, where manís eyes were open, knowing oneself as naked as Gods and developing a moral sense, tells us that it would be seen as good for man and not a fall. They have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

    I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for a murdering God.

    Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue, --- or as Christians do, Original Sin, or as I do with God bringing death to earth with Original Murder?

    Regards
    DL
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    Aww that's interesting.

    Didn't know jews had thought of it first.

    As I see it the fall of eden means it fell from its virtuous place.

    Man and woman learned that it was an amoral garden and left to cultivate their own field instead.
    Last edited by Paris; 21st May 2018 at 07:24 AM.

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    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Man is a risen ape, not a fallen angel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

    Christians see a fall for man in Eden while the Jews see it as where man was elevated.

    I see it as where, thanks to God’s murder by neglect of Adam and Eve, as where God fell. Adam and Eve would have lived much longer if God had not locked away the tree of life.

    Common sense from a simple reading of Genesis, where man’s eyes were open, knowing oneself as naked as Gods and developing a moral sense, tells us that it would be seen as good for man and not a fall. They have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

    I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for a murdering God.

    Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue, --- or as Christians do, Original Sin, or as I do with God bringing death to earth with Original Murder?

    Regards
    DL
    I think the original intended meaning of the myth was as a warning against curiosity -- a theme that's similar to one that pops up in a lot of other myths, like Pandora's box. Religious leaders have a vested interest in keeping their followers ignorant, and so there's utility in having myths about knowledge being the source of evil. But I much prefer looking at the story as one of growing up. There's an easy simplicity in being a child -- ignorant of sex, living in the moment, as untroubled by one's nakedness and one's mortality as an animal is. But as lovely as that is, in its own way, it's no state to remain in. We need to become self-conscious, to grasp the knowledge of good and evil, to understand our own mortality, and to leave the playpen of our childhood, knowing all the while that we will never be able to return. Beyond the walls of the garden are toil and the pain of childbirth, and ultimately old age and death. But it beats forever being imprisoned in a false paradise of ignorance and the lack of genuine free will. It's about growing up. God is best understood simply as a metaphor for the child's conception of his parents, at that very early point where they seem almost omnipotent and omniscient, and children quake at the possibility of defying their seemingly arbitrary rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Man is a risen ape, not a fallen angel.
    There's a way to read the myth of Eden in light of evolutionary biology. Basically, read it as a story about evolution of the human brain advancing to the point that we, alone among animals, became conscious of good and evil, of our nakedness, of our own mortality, or our capacity for free exercise of our will, etc. That consciousness alienated us from nature, in the same way that Adam and Eve were cast out from the garden. And, ironically, it gave us the ability to dream up a story about a supernatural figure who tried to get us not to take that step.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Aww that's interesting.

    Didn't know jews had thought of it first.

    As I see it the fall of eden means it fell from its virtuous place.

    Man and woman learned that it was an amoral garden and left to cultivate their own field instead.
    I would have said more like immoral, given that God wanted to deny A & E knowledge of everything, as everything is subject to good and evil, but I can accept amoral.

    Regards
    DL
    Thanks from Paris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    I think the original intended meaning of the myth was as a warning against curiosity -- a theme that's similar to one that pops up in a lot of other myths, like Pandora's box. Religious leaders have a vested interest in keeping their followers ignorant, and so there's utility in having myths about knowledge being the source of evil. But I much prefer looking at the story as one of growing up. There's an easy simplicity in being a child -- ignorant of sex, living in the moment, as untroubled by one's nakedness and one's mortality as an animal is. But as lovely as that is, in its own way, it's no state to remain in. We need to become self-conscious, to grasp the knowledge of good and evil, to understand our own mortality, and to leave the playpen of our childhood, knowing all the while that we will never be able to return. Beyond the walls of the garden are toil and the pain of childbirth, and ultimately old age and death. But it beats forever being imprisoned in a false paradise of ignorance and the lack of genuine free will. It's about growing up. God is best understood simply as a metaphor for the child's conception of his parents, at that very early point where they seem almost omnipotent and omniscient, and children quake at the possibility of defying their seemingly arbitrary rules.
    Nicely put.

    I agree that it was likely written, in part, as a rite of passage myth.

    Regards
    DL

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    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    Written 500 years BC

    “The woman looked at the apple and thought how tasty it looked. She thought how wonderful it would be to be as wise and powerful as God... As soon as they ate the apple of knowledge a change came over Adam and Eve. They became unhappy and fearful of God.


    The scientific age.

    “Sir Isaac Newton was an English mathematician and mathematician and physicist who lived from 1642-1727. Newton's Principia, in which he lays out this comprehensive system of organization and develops the mathematical field of calculus, is seen as the key which unlocked the mysteries of the universe, the climax of the strivings of all of the Scientists of the Scientific Revolution. The legend is that Newton discovered Gravity when he saw a falling apple while thinking about the forces of nature.”


    If you believe the scripture is written by God, then you must necessarily accept that it’s written by an author who has already seen the whole universe in time from beginning to end, from an external viewpoint. Not writing from a place IN time.

    So the people and places are just the best way to describe things to a Bronze Age listener. You use examples and descriptions that they can understand.



    Last edited by Dr.Knuckles; 21st May 2018 at 03:39 PM.
    Thanks from Arkady

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    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    There's a way to read the myth of Eden in light of evolutionary biology. Basically, read it as a story about evolution of the human brain advancing to the point that we, alone among animals, became conscious of good and evil, of our nakedness, of our own mortality, or our capacity for free exercise of our will, etc. That consciousness alienated us from nature, in the same way that Adam and Eve were cast out from the garden. And, ironically, it gave us the ability to dream up a story about a supernatural figure who tried to get us not to take that step.
    Interesting. I submit that there is also a way to read the myth of Eden in the light of late prehistory, of the transition from the idyllic life of hunter-gatherers to the more brutal existence of early farmers, the transition from the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic cultures to the early Neolithic cultures, especially in regards to the Middle East, which is of course the provenance of nearly all of these origin myths in Western Civilization. Hunter-gatherers mostly had it pretty nice. Work maybe ten hours a week, and spend the rest of your time relaxing, socializing, telling stories around the campfire. But we were such successful hunters that towards the end of the Pleistocene, we were driving many of our larger prey animals into extinction. And then, BAM!!! We were hit by RAPID climate change, at the Pleistocene/Holocene transition. Life suddenly got VERY much tougher. We had to adapt, and QUICKLY. In just a generation or two, human groups living in the Middle East had to start focusing on much smaller animals and much more intensively utilizing wild plant resources. Some of those plants----wheat and barley, in particular, very quickly self-domesticated, as did sheep and goats. [We already had domesticated dogs.] And the transition to farming had begun. But early farming was HARD. Especially for the WOMEN. This was when patriarchal society also really got into high gear. This was when we got kicked out of Eden. We did not yet have the plow, and did not yet have domesticated cattle, to serve as a beast of burden. That only came later. Is it any wonder that such myths of Eden came into existence about then, and were handed down from generation to generation?

    The stories of Eden are memories of a lost world, a world when humans had it MUCH easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Man is a risen ape, not a fallen angel.
    If we evolved from Apes, why are there still apes?
    We may have been spliced from Apes.
    Last edited by Idiocracat; 21st May 2018 at 04:13 PM.

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