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Thread: There are no Jews in Israel

  1. #21
    Member Robert Urbanek's Avatar
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    My hypothesis is merely a variation on the theory of the Sephardic rabbi Ovadia Yosef. So if I am anti-Semitic, so is Yosef. Either God intervenes in human affairs or he doesn't. If he had a role in the Exodus, then he could just well have had a role in the Holocaust.

    The idea that oppressors could be transformed into victims is an old tool of irony, most notably used, sometimes with a heavy hand, on The Twilight Zone. And since that program was created by a Jew, Rod Serling, one could say my approach to the Holocaust has a Jewish sensibility.

  2. #22
    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassy View Post
    You're not understanding the question being based on Jewish scholars looking for reasons why this happened to people with whom God had made a covenant to provide divine protection.
    Oh, I understand the premise. If Jews are God's chosen people, why did he choose to let them suffer? I jut think the premise is flawed. It was not god that made them suffer, but their fellow human beings.

    Human beings are predators that evolved living in tribes, not so much different from wolf packs. The surprising thing isn't so much why there are periodic genocides, but why we've managed to keep the peace as well as we have.
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  3. #23
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    Can you really claim you are mocking false claims if you do not show how they are false?
    That was done in the threads being referenced in the thread in question.

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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    If Jews are G-d's chosen people, why did he choose to let them suffer?
    What do you think "G-d's chosen people" means? Or, rather, what does it mean to you that you ask the question?

  5. #25
    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    What do you think "G-d's chosen people" means? Or, rather, what does it mean to you that you ask the question?
    It refers to the belief that Jews are the people chosen to be in a covenant with god. It's a belief that goes back to the ancient Israelites.

  6. #26
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It refers to the belief that Jews are the people chosen to be in a covenant with g-d. It's a belief that goes back to the ancient Israelites.
    Yes, I know what it means. I was asking what you thought it meant.

    From the Jewish perspective, it means the Jews were chosen to receive (and thus bound to live by) the Torah, and it is the Torah that is the eternal covenant between G-d and Israel. This status not only confers no special privileges, but involves obligations that non-Jews do not have. This is why Israel can be made to suffer ... for failing in those obligations and/or blatantly violating prohibitions.

  7. #27
    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Yes, I know what it means. I was asking what you thought it meant.

    From the Jewish perspective, it means the Jews were chosen to receive (and thus bound to live by) the Torah, and it is the Torah that is the eternal covenant between G-d and Israel. This status not only confers no special privileges, but involves obligations that non-Jews do not have. This is why Israel can be made to suffer ... for failing in those obligations and/or blatantly violating prohibitions.
    Well, I told you what I thought it meant. I think we're in agreement on the definition.

    About the rest of it, I don't believe that god caused the holocaust, or was somehow complicit in it, or allowed it to happen. I think the holocaust was the result of human beings, as I described above.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    That was done in the threads being referenced in the thread in question.
    You'll say all sorts of nonsense to detract from your hypocrisy.

    You're argument is that they are fake persecution claims because those alleged persecutions are legal. The only problem is, real persecution around the world is, more often than not, also legal -- according to the laws of those countries. In fact, nazi persecution of jews was legal according to their laws.

    So, how are they fake persecution claims, hmmmm?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Yes, I know what it means. I was asking what you thought it meant.

    From the Jewish perspective, it means the Jews were chosen to receive (and thus bound to live by) the Torah, and it is the Torah that is the eternal covenant between G-d and Israel. This status not only confers no special privileges, but involves obligations that non-Jews do not have. This is why Israel can be made to suffer ... for failing in those obligations and/or blatantly violating prohibitions.
    The abrahamic covenant confers no special privilege?

    No land was promised? Descendants? A great nation?

  10. #30
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingrat View Post
    But holocaust victims weren't just jews.
    A true statement, and something forgotten by many.

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