Thread: Atheism, Science, and Christianity

Originally Posted by Fishy

Science finds an ally in Christianity.

Here's a quote from sociologist Rodney Stark: Recent historical research has debunked the idea of a "Dark Ages" after the "fall" of Rome. In fact, this was an era of profound and rapid technological progress, by the end of which Europe had surpassed the rest of the world. Moreover, the so-called "Scientific Revolution" of the sixteenth century was a result of developments begun by religious scholars starting in the eleventh century. In my own academic research I have asked why these religious scholastics were interested in science at all. Why did science develop in Europe at this time? Why did it not develop anywhere else? I find answers to those questions in unique features of Christian theology.
Even in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the leading scientific figures were overwhelmingly devout Christians who believed it their duty to comprehend God's handiwork. My studies show that the "Enlightenment" was conceived initially as a propaganda ploy by militant atheists attempting to claim credit for the rise of science. The falsehood that science required the defeat of religion was proclaimed by self-appointed cheerleaders like Voltaire, Diderot, and Gibbon, who themselves played no part in the scientific enterprise......

Christians also founded many great universities where a lot of these scholars did their research.

I'm wondering what this is from... I'm particularly interested in how the Dark Ages are called a time of 'rapid technological progress.' The period called 'the Dark Ages' is generally placed between 300 and somewhere between 800 and 1200 CE. The second part of the medieval period (the 'high' medieval) is not 'Dark Ages." But even that period didn't have a lot of technological progress--and what progress did occur happened outside Europe. Even the reintroduction of classical texts (like Plato and Aristotle) to Europe--which helped spawn the Renaissance-- came as a result of contact with Muslims, who had translated those texts into Arabic.

What technological progress happened between 300-1200 CE?

Sane person #1: "I believe God created the universe in 7 days and made Adam and Eve"

Sane person #2: "Hey, me too"

Wacko: "Hey, me too"

Sane Person #1: "Hey look what I found out. All species evolve, and our own evolution can be traced back hundreds of thousands of years. So this means God created the universe over a much longer period of time and we call come from common stock in Africa.

Sane Person #2: "Check this out too, the universe is expanding from a central point...that point must be the point of an original creation of the universe. So when God created the universe he did so at a central point, and now all matter is expanding outward from that point"

Wacko: "No! Evil. You are both Godless sinners. And so is Elton John. 7 days. Adam and Eve"

Sane Person #1: "Relax Wacko. If you believe God created the universe and we can plainly see that the universe is expanding from a point of origin, then that would mean that God create the universe from that central point. Perhaps the Adam and Eve myth is to tell us we come from common ancestors. Which it turns out is actually true"

Sane Person #2: "I dunno. I don't see God as necessary to the process anymore"

Sane Person #1: "Really? I do. There is evidence of Him all around"

Sane Person #2: Really. I don't see it. But we can all agree on the development of the universe and humanity... it's the presence of God in it we disagree on, and let's face it.. we'll never resolve that. Back to the telescope lads"

Wacko: NO NO NO! You are bothj Godless sinners. How dare you spread such filth and hate. I cannot bear the insults. You mock God to his face!

Sane person #1 and #2: Woah. Dude. Just look in the telescope. Check out the bones and shit. We're not making this shit up. If you believe in God and evolution is evident.. then the conclusion is that evolution is God's plan.. it;s the method God used to create us. What's the problem?

Wacko: BLASPHEMY!

I'm reading a book on brain science that I have mentioned in other threads. One of the things we've learned just recently about brain development is that the human brain has systems built upon systems built upon systems. The old systems were never cleared out as our species evolved--we just built new systems on top of the old ones, and then each of us continues to build new systems during our lives as our brains develop, continually until we die. This creates a sort of Rube Goldberg conglomeration of systems that work, and work well, but don't suggest an 'ultimate' design. If the creation suggests a creator, this creator doesn't know what He's doing, working through layer upon layer of ideas tried out and rejected, only to have a new system built on top every time. And the process hasn't stopped. Does that suggest a intelligent designer? What all-knowing intelligent designer wouldn't just make it right the first time?

Originally Posted by Rasselas

came as a result of contact with Muslims, who had translated those texts into Arabic.

Muslims did make some valuable contributions.

What technological progress happened between 300-1200 CE?

The second part of the medieval period (the 'high' medieval) is not 'Dark Ages." But even that period didn't have a lot of technological progress

These websites should prove useful:
Science in the Middle Ages
Top 10 Inventions of the Middle Ages

Originally Posted by Tedminator

@Fishy ..am wondering; Why your constant bashing of atheist?

Which facts have I gotten wrong?

I do enjoy shedding light on these fanatical atheists that scurry about in dark corners of the internet.

The media bosses distort reality. They try to impose their prejudices on the public. Everyone knows about the injustice committed against Galileo, but how many know about the far worse intolerance of atheists?

Centuries ago Galileo was given very mild house arrest mostly because he angered the wrong people. The Church was certainly not anti-science - it was a Catholic cleric, Nicolaus Copernicus, who developed the heliocentric theory!

Far more recently atheist Trofim Lysenko persecuted and murdered scientists who rejected his Marxist-flavored pseudo-science.

quote: Lysenko was put in charge of the Academy of Agricultural Sciences of the Soviet Union and made responsible for ending the propagation of "harmful" ideas among Soviet scientists. Lysenko served this purpose by causing the expulsion, imprisonment, and death of hundreds of scientists and eliminating all study and research involving Mendelian genetics throughout the Soviet Union. This period is known as Lysenkoism. He bears particular responsibility for the persecution of his predecessor and rival, prominent Soviet biologist Nikolai Vavilov, which ended in 1943 with the imprisoned Vavilov's death by starvation. In 1941 Lysenko was awarded the Stalin Prize.

LINK

Originally Posted by Dr.Gently

Wacko: BLASPHEMY!

You could also have a wacko who was an intolerant atheist.

Like these guys: USSR anti-religious campaign

Originally Posted by Fishy

Which facts have I gotten wrong?

I do enjoy shedding light on these fanatical atheists that scurry about in dark corners of the internet.

A post replete with irony, but bereft of insight, blinking as it scurries about, darkening the enlightened acres of the internet.

Originally Posted by Fishy

Muslims did make some valuable contributions.

These websites should prove useful:
Science in the Middle Ages

Honestly, this site didn't teach me much, and just confirmed what I knew before: incredible technology was lost with the fall of the Roman Empire. This site speaks of "de-urbanization," which was necessary because cities of a large size need aquaducts, and once these began to break, they couldn't be replaced due to a lack of know how. Winston Churchill wrote in his History of the English Speaking People that the Romans brought central heating to Britain, and they were not to have it again until the 20th century. Your site suggests a lot about what texts one could learn from, but there's very little about the development of new technologies--quite the opposite really.

Top 10 Inventions of the Middle Ages

This one is more interesting. I would tend to discount inventions that had substantial precursors, particularly when they came from neighboring civilizations. That leaves about six inventions from your list. I'd also ask you to remember that the later 'high' middle ages are not called The Dark Ages at all. The last invention, the printing press, can't be thought of as a medieval invention at all--it's Renaissance.

The medieval Christian mindset actually inhibited invention, and it was only the replacement of that was a new Christian ethos--Christian Humanism--that science, the arts, trade, and the spread of ideas became central elements of life in Europe.

Originally Posted by Dangermouse

A post replete with irony, ....

Exquisite prose but I'm still waiting for you to tell me which facts are wrong.