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  1. #41
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    Why great nations retreat in themselves ? Very often because they cannot accept, that the myths on which they stood, fade away instead of addressing reality and trying to be better than others where they are really good. There was a lot said here on child labor, but it is a big moral problem and a much smaller economical one. What is the share of child labor in the globalized economy ? It is not what makes China exports cheap.... The big question is how for the US to export more high quality products than to stop assembly lines in Mexico or in other low income coutries. What is difficult to export are ordinary product which anyone can manufacture. If you put know how in products the game is different..... But for that you need a skilled manpower and are whaht is invested in training it enoughin the US compared to other developepd countries ? Why Japan or Germany can export with rather high salaries and the US in proportion much less ? You need first to bring answers to this type of question before complaining.....
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    Why great nations retreat in themselves ? Very often because they cannot accept, that the myths on which they stood, fade away instead of addressing reality and trying to be better than others where they are really good. There was a lot said here on child labor, but it is a big moral problem and a much smaller economical one. What is the share of child labor in the globalized economy ? It is not what makes China exports cheap.... The big question is how for the US to export more high quality products than to stop assembly lines in Mexico or in other low income coutries. What is difficult to export are ordinary product which anyone can manufacture. If you put know how in products the game is different..... But for that you need a skilled manpower and are whaht is invested in training it enoughin the US compared to other developepd countries ? Why Japan or Germany can export with rather high salaries and the US in proportion much less ? You need first to bring answers to this type of question before complaining.....
    I don't think you're right. Child labour is a huge moral and economical issue. In DR Congo alone there are over 3 million child labourers working in slave like conditions. Most of the profits from there go to US and European companies not the Chinese. All of our modern technology is based on raw minerals extracted by slave labour in Africa or South America. The Chinese get into the picture around the time Apple comes into it. So, if you're an owner of an iPhone you're responsible for indirectly supporting slave labour in mines and directly responsible for supporting slave labour in Chinese factories where iPhones are made.
    Behind the scenes at Apple's controversial China iPhone factory - Chicago Tribune

    Germany has done within the EU what the US had done with Mexico. Exported low skilled jobs to Eastern European countries and retained high skilled jobs. The auto industry in the US operates in the same way as it does in Germany. Both countries have specialized in sophisticated technological products, but Germany has around 80 million inhabitants and the US has around 350 million. The market for these products increases as developing countries enter more developed stages and adopt more traits of a consumerist society.

    But even then, the best solution for these problems would be equal labour wages and protections but for that to happen countries like India, China and Brasil would first need to develop consumer economies. They need to reach a certain level of wealth before they would even consider leveling the playing field. The Chinese are on their way but India and Brasil won't be going that way anytime soon. I recently came across an interesting piece of data. Half of all real estate owned in Brasil is owned by the richest 1%.

    The US is veering towards mercantilism, in its truest form, which is an ideology that inevitably puts countries on a path to war with each other. The current US administration believes that new wealth cannot be created but that there is a finite amount of it and that the US is allowing other countries far too much of it. Liberals and marxists and other ideologues are screaming that such views will leave America less wealthy, but mercantilists are fine with that. They believe that short term wealth can and should be sacrificed if the country stands to gain more power in the longer term. That's exactly what we've been hearing from this US administration.
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  3. #43
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    I see your points, but I am not convinced that child labor or cheap labor weight as much globally. I focus more on performance and one example I remember from a lecture about the Japan and China economies was that for China in the structure of what the price of a product is made would for example for something they sell 10 invest 4-5 in energy, the rest in machine and manpower, when Japan for a product sold alos 10 would invest only one in energy, the rest being know how, R&D and Manpower. It is caricatural of course, but the trend is to incorporate more know how value in to product, because it is what makes possible a good margin. I am living in an export minded country, which is very innovative and we are able to be successful mainly because we have very skilled manpower, very good professional training etc.... And everything is expensive in Switzerland, meanwhile we export a lot. Here workers are far more expensive than in the US and it is still possible to sell our products. So I do not think that the opposition you made between mercantilism and some other type of economy, the way you do it, takes into account the huge mutations in economy we live..... like what really globalization is.... And do not forget that countries where production is delocalized do change all the time, because of economical progress which push up the local economy and tends to integrate more sophisticated productions. China even may be too expensive for some products like textile and Vietnam etc..... Of course the question of child labor is still there.... But it is not something important in China actually.

  4. #44
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    Why great nations retreat in themselves ? Very often because they cannot accept, that the myths on which they stood, fade away instead of addressing reality and trying to be better than others where they are really good. There was a lot said here on child labor, but it is a big moral problem and a much smaller economical one. What is the share of child labor in the globalized economy ? It is not what makes China exports cheap.... The big question is how for the US to export more high quality products than to stop assembly lines in Mexico or in other low income coutries. What is difficult to export are ordinary product which anyone can manufacture. If you put know how in products the game is different..... But for that you need a skilled manpower and are whaht is invested in training it enoughin the US compared to other developepd countries ? Why Japan or Germany can export with rather high salaries and the US in proportion much less ? You need first to bring answers to this type of question before complaining.....
    Agree. The US no longer values the average worker. Neither of my parents ever graduated high school. My mom was a maid and made enough money for us to live modestly with a small home and 2 cars. Then they decided to not pay any of the newer maids more and left them at whatever the min wage was in their respective state. Wasn't long before it was no longer enough to live on and Americans didn't want that job anymore. Same for many other jobs. The pay never kept up. It becomes a vicious cycle. Had salaries kept up then yes other things would be more expensive. But if everyone's wages went up in proportion it would work. Saw a stat that if wages had advanced the way they were in the 50s and 60s the average salary in the US today would be around 200k. Yet its only around 50K. Its how we keep the cycle of poverty moving.
    Thanks from Madeline and BigLeRoy

  5. #45
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    I see your points, but I am not convinced that child labor or cheap labor weight as much globally. I focus more on performance and one example I remember from a lecture about the Japan and China economies was that for China in the structure of what the price of a product is made would for example for something they sell 10 invest 4-5 in energy, the rest in machine and manpower, when Japan for a product sold alos 10 would invest only one in energy, the rest being know how, R&D and Manpower. It is caricatural of course, but the trend is to incorporate more know how value in to product, because it is what makes possible a good margin. I am living in an export minded country, which is very innovative and we are able to be successful mainly because we have very skilled manpower, very good professional training etc.... And everything is expensive in Switzerland, meanwhile we export a lot. Here workers are far more expensive than in the US and it is still possible to sell our products. So I do not think that the opposition you made between mercantilism and some other type of economy, the way you do it, takes into account the huge mutations in economy we live..... like what really globalization is.... And do not forget that countries where production is delocalized do change all the time, because of economical progress which push up the local economy and tends to integrate more sophisticated productions. China even may be too expensive for some products like textile and Vietnam etc..... Of course the question of child labor is still there.... But it is not something important in China actually.
    Child labor has become more pronounced in other countries like Laos and Bangladesh. Years ago many of the clothes sold in the US were made by union workers. But then they closed shop and went overseas. At least several times a year we still hear of certain brands forced to shut their doors in third world countries due to child labor. Its a bigger problem in certain areas like textiles.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Why can't we put the burden on the nation trying to import goods here, to prove the goods are not child or slave made?
    How can you prove a negative to the satisfaction of someone else? If we have a regulation, it's probably up to us to enforce it. We wouldn't trust another country to enforce such a regulation anyway, would we?

    I think child and slave labor is largely a canard. Not that such things don't exist, but they make up a small portion of the economic problem for us. The real problem is completely free adults who work for a pittance in dangerous conditions--that's who makes most of our imported goods.
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  7. #47
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    Why great nations retreat in themselves ? Very often because they cannot accept, that the myths on which they stood, fade away instead of addressing reality and trying to be better than others where they are really good. There was a lot said here on child labor, but it is a big moral problem and a much smaller economical one. What is the share of child labor in the globalized economy ? It is not what makes China exports cheap.... The big question is how for the US to export more high quality products than to stop assembly lines in Mexico or in other low income coutries. What is difficult to export are ordinary product which anyone can manufacture. If you put know how in products the game is different..... But for that you need a skilled manpower and are whaht is invested in training it enoughin the US compared to other developepd countries ? Why Japan or Germany can export with rather high salaries and the US in proportion much less ? You need first to bring answers to this type of question before complaining.....
    Complaining is my God-given right as an American!

    Besides, I am struggling to grasp even the most elementary economic concepts. I do try, but it's not hard to overwhelm me.

  8. #48
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    How can you prove a negative to the satisfaction of someone else? If we have a regulation, it's probably up to us to enforce it. We wouldn't trust another country to enforce such a regulation anyway, would we?

    I think child and slave labor is largely a canard. Not that such things don't exist, but they make up a small portion of the economic problem for us. The real problem is completely free adults who work for a pittance in dangerous conditions--that's who makes most of our imported goods.
    We can add extreme workplace safety violations to the list. And monitors can be found, trained, paid and deployed -- this is not impossible.

    Get them from the International Red Cross, or the UN or the Human Rights Commission.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    The US is the biggest consumer on the planet. Why would it be error for Americans to protect our workers from competition from child and slave labor made goods?
    Here's the thing, globalization is already here, the problem is that the peasants (the majority of the worlds population) have no say.....we need to change that part of things.


    We have to stop competing with each other and cooperate with each other to achieve our goals, not race and try to beat others out of the prize....

    The best hope of ending things like slavery and child labor IS globalization and having some global standards on such things...as it stands now, its the power elite who decide everything and of course they shape it to benefit themselves, the few over the many, and continue to concentrate power to themselves. Globalization doesnt have to be done in the way its being done now, it can be done to benefit HUMANS instead of a few nations and the global power elites.

    Globalization should seek cooperation and for everyone to get what they need, everyone having access to resources and prosperity instead of trying to "beat" the others and box them out.
    Thanks from galatin and tnbskts

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    We can add extreme workplace safety violations to the list. And monitors can be found, trained, paid and deployed -- this is not impossible.

    Get them from the International Red Cross, or the UN or the Human Rights Commission.
    Neither of those organizations is set up to enforce workplace safety rules. Would the US enjoy letting people from other countries perform invasive searches and examinations of factories, places of business, and private accounting? Would our Constitution even allow it? How can we ask other countries to do the same thing?

    Who would pay for these inspections? How would they be funded?

    The scheme you're suggesting would require the cooperation of the other governments involved, an every government (including our own) would have reason to cheat.

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