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Thread: Is There Value In Debating Hate?

  1. #11
    Cyborg Coyote's Avatar
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    In my own experience, it rarely pays to "debate" with someone who feels what you consider to be hatred towards a particular person or group.

    First, they'll almost always disagree that what they feel is hate, so there's just about zero chance that you're going to change their minds. If you've done this long enough, you probably realize you're not going to win them over. Instead, you're probably hoping to influence the people watching your debate, not your opponent.

    Second, if you're the target or a member of the target group, you're necessarily going to be more emotionally involved in the discussion. While it may be just an intellectual exercise for your opponent, you're affected personally by the outcome of the debate as it plays out large on the national or world stage, and it can be exhausting. The more defensive and/or tired you get, the more angry you become. People for the most part don't like to read angry. People want funny. The angrier you get, the more people start tuning you out. Pretty soon you have no influence on anyone anymore, and you're just burned out and probably cynical.
    Last edited by Coyote; 2nd January 2018 at 06:13 AM.

  2. #12
    Veteran Member PACE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Based on a true story:





    David Irving and why the Holocaust went on trial

    Prof. Deborah Lipstadt had no choice; she was sued by the Holocaust denier. Unless she avoided the jurisdiction of the UK courts, or conceded she had libeled David Irving, she had to enter an appearance and make an argument, and of course, she did win.

    But as we all know, hatred is popular, especially online, and especially in the US. We could any of us spend all day refuting lies told about Jews and Israel, or about black Americans and BLM, or about virtually any other ethnicity that is marginalized or oppressed in the West.

    Some of these debates might be healthy. Well-meaning people might learn new facts and change their minds. But not all of them.

    Well-meaning people do not despise Jews and refer to Judaism as a "cult", etc. They do not lie about the history of Israel, or pretend that Israel has forced Arab Israelis into ghettos, then "holocausted" them.




    How much is best? Is there a sunshine disinfecting mold tactic at work, or are we just offering to pay attention to people whose views are so hateful and so irrational, they should be shunned?

    Does it matter how frequently we encounter such false beliefs? I must have read 1,001 times on PH alone the "BLM is a terrorist organization".




    Completely untrue.

    I find myself growing deeply angry, disturbed, even frightened by the rising tide of hate in this country. Combating it seems to me to be the obligation of every decent person in this country.

    The question is......how?

    Silence gives the false sense of agreement, so yes, yes there is value to one's own integrity. When broad brushing attempts to paint all corners of a people, get out your ulitity knife and clip the bristles. And by all means never shrink from the opportunity to illuminate the hate spewer's personal motivation.
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  3. #13
    Veteran Member PACE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
    In my own experience, it rarely pays to "debate" with someone who feels what you consider to be hatred towards a particular person or group.

    First, they'll almost always disagree that what they feel is hate, so there's just about zero chance that you're going to change their minds. If you've done this long enough, you probably realize you're not going to win them over. Instead, you're probably hoping to influence the people watching your debate, not your opponent.

    Second, if you're the target or a member of the target group, you're necessarily going to be more emotionally involved in the discussion. While it may be just an intellectual exercise for your opponent, you're affected personally by the outcome of the debate as it plays out large on the national or world stage, and it can be exhausting. The more defensive and/or tired you get, the more angry you become. People for the most part don't like to read angry. People want funny. The angrier you get, the more people start tuning you out. Pretty soon you have no influence on anyone anymore, and you're just burned out and probably cynical.
    I am a cynic, rarely do i attribute some esoteric motivation for the hate. Sometimes its pure jealously over the FACT THE FACT that certain members of our society require attention. Simply because they are being KILLED for what they are. Whether its a skin color, a six pointed yellow star or a personal identity that gives the individual peace in their own life, it doesn't matter much to me, speak it and I'll be there to combat it. I have no respect for people who manufacture oppression because they are jealous of those who suffer REAL OPPRESSION.
    Thanks from Madeline and Minotaur

  4. #14
    Veteran Member Eve1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    My mother was born and raised in Canada and when she was a young adult she had a close friend of Anglo descent of some sort. She never specified. And her friend became engaged to a young man of Italian descent. There was and is a relatively large population of Italians in and around Niagara Falls where my mother grew up. Her friend insisted that the groom-to-be Anglicize his name and he wouldn't so they never got married. Seems awfully silly, but even the ever so polite Canadians have had their prejudices and hatred.
    What if his sir name was completely unpronounceable? Maybe she just didn't want her children to have to go through life with a name that took a native Italian to pronounce. I know it sounds silly but sometimes if a sir name is next to impossible for the average person to pronounce or remember in a country or region and you plan to spend your life in that country or region it might be a good idea to try and make the next generations life a little easier. Just for shits and giggles lets say the guy wasn't Italian and his name was Wiener. What about that? What if the name is just plain open to ridicule in the country or region you are planning to spend your life? Then is it a deal breaker? Please don't tell me that you can keep your maiden name because of course you can but your kids are going to be cursed with his name or a hyphenated version which may actual be worse.
    Last edited by Eve1; 2nd January 2018 at 06:49 AM.

  5. #15
    Member Robert Urbanek's Avatar
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    If hatred is so deeply ingrained in humans, then at some point it must have had some value in our evolution.

  6. #16
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    There is value in examining hatred, which is often based upon nothing factual.
    There is, however, little value in arguing the basis for that hatred, because the "facts" used to justify the hatred automatically put the hated on the defense - which is entirely the point of the hater's attack in the first place.
    Thanks from Coyote, Leo2, Madeline and 1 others

  7. #17
    Veteran Member bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Urbanek View Post
    If hatred is so deeply ingrained in humans, then at some point it must have had some value in our evolution.
    dunno, but it's used extensively to justify one's illogical attitude or opposition to an idea.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Based on a true story:


    Does it matter how frequently we encounter such false beliefs? I must have read 1,001 times on PH alone the "BLM is a terrorist organization".




    Completely untrue.

    I find myself growing deeply angry, disturbed, even frightened by the rising tide of hate in this country. Combating it seems to me to be the obligation of every decent person in this country.

    The question is......how?

    Your quote at the end shows how. You don't defeat hate with hate. You defeat it with love. In the movie you mention the "win" is that she wasn't found guilty of libel by the high court. That doesn't mean minds were changed though. It just means she wasn't guilty of a crime.

    Now to beat hate you have to love and by definition that means empathy for someone even if you think they hate or want to kill you. That is profoundly hard which is why when someone is rare enough to do it we celebrate the success they achieve.

    You say you see a rising tide of hate in this country. Honestly these "deplorables", the "poor whites", rust belt workers, the opioid users, former Obama voters that are now Trump voters, etc. They exist. Their life expectancy is declining. They are suffering.

    However you can't understand or change them by HATING THEM or even BLAMING THEM. After WWII we helped rebuild Germany and Japan. We didn't put them in the hate box never to escape.

    So if you think Trump voters are hateful then you'll have to start to change that by embracing and loving them and their needs. As they say hate the sin and love the sinner. It's true in every other direction as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by PACE View Post
    Silence gives the false sense of agreement, so yes, yes there is value to one's own integrity. When broad brushing attempts to paint all corners of a people, get out your ulitity knife and clip the bristles. And by all means never shrink from the opportunity to illuminate the hate spewer's personal motivation.
    Or what you assign to be their personal motivation every time there is a personal or political disagreement.

    Do you think this guy starts off with illuminating the spewers personal motivation?
    He starts off with dinner, talking, and finding what is in common.
    Thanks from Madeline

  9. #19
    Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    dunno, but it's used extensively to justify one's illogical attitude or opposition to an idea.
    What was necessary to survive tens of thousands of years of meager existence as a fringe species susceptible to a complete wipe out at any time is no longer an advantage, it is an evolutionary dead end if it is allowed to persist. Hate is born out of fear of the other or revenge. Fear of the other lead to isolation, humans moved to less populated areas out of fear of the other or death by other means. Revenge was born out of anger and loss, it too is a dead end in this modern world for it can only lead to more death. Today, the largest institutions that still promote hatred are religions, specifically the three branches of the Abrahamic faith. Hate propels Jews to persecute Palestinians who return it in kind. Hate sustains the myths of hell and heaven, it creates a moral justification for treating one group differently than another group. The Catholic Church practiced hatred for hundreds of years until recently. In America, the various offshoots of Luther's little tantrum all breed hatred, they rarely focus their attention upon the first four books of the NT, they like the OT much more for it gives them Iron Age values to justify their desire to hate another person.
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  10. #20
    Veteran Member Dangermouse's Avatar
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    Hate loves debate because that give it spurious legitimacy. Give it mockery. It really hates that!
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