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Thread: Is There Value In Debating Hate?

  1. #21
    Veteran Member PACE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
    Your quote at the end shows how. You don't defeat hate with hate. You defeat it with love. In the movie you mention the "win" is that she wasn't found guilty of libel by the high court. That doesn't mean minds were changed though. It just means she wasn't guilty of a crime.

    Now to beat hate you have to love and by definition that means empathy for someone even if you think they hate or want to kill you. That is profoundly hard which is why when someone is rare enough to do it we celebrate the success they achieve.

    You say you see a rising tide of hate in this country. Honestly these "deplorables", the "poor whites", rust belt workers, the opioid users, former Obama voters that are now Trump voters, etc. They exist. Their life expectancy is declining. They are suffering.

    However you can't understand or change them by HATING THEM or even BLAMING THEM. After WWII we helped rebuild Germany and Japan. We didn't put them in the hate box never to escape.

    So if you think Trump voters are hateful then you'll have to start to change that by embracing and loving them and their needs. As they say hate the sin and love the sinner. It's true in every other direction as well.



    Or what you assign to be their personal motivation every time there is a personal or political disagreement.

    Do you think this guy starts off with illuminating the spewers personal motivation?
    He starts off with dinner, talking, and finding what is in common.
    The point is They must hate the motivation. Do you get it now?

  2. #22
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpicturetaker12 View Post
    I think this is an appropriate place. A couple of years ago, I heard on NPR, and later read, there is NO genetic difference--the same DNA--between ISRAELIS and PALESTINIANS.
    There's no genetic difference between any two humans. There is no scientific underpinning to concepts of race in humans.

    None. Whatsoever.

    Identities and their meaning are 100% manufactured by humans, and since all groups of humans do manufacture them and have throughout history, we can conclude this serves a powerful human need. Most likely, to alleviate loneliness and raise the odds of survival.

    But that meaning is not a "law of nature", apart from the sciences focused on human behavior.
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  3. #23
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    agreed. hate is, by definition, one of the strongest emotions known to humanity. being an emotion, it defies logic. any discussions based on logic are doomed to failure. and, since discussions are normally based on some sort of logic, any fruitful discussion is useless and a waste of time. understand hate - absolutely. understanding from whence it comes - absolutely. but, it must be taken for what is - an emotion which defies logic.
    Hate is not an emotion. It's a choice of coping mechanism some humans make when overwhelmed by fear, frustration or loss.

    The underlying cause, the motivating pain, is usually entirely personal. A bedrock neurosis that is ill-suited to treatment by posting on a political message board.

    If we can't make things better for haters, why do we allow the haters to make things so much worse for us?
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  4. #24
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Hate is not an emotion. It's a choice of coping mechanism some humans make when overwhelmed by fear, frustration or loss.

    The underlying cause, the motivating pain, is usually entirely personal. A bedrock neurosis that is ill-suited to treatment by posting on a political message board.

    If we can't make things better for haters, why do we allow the haters to make things so much worse for us?
    I also think there is such a thing as "ignorant hate." Meaning those who never met or unfamiliar with others or their ways hate them because they assume they are bad. I first heard about that last year when that movie "Loving" about interracial marriage was released. There were discussions as to how many people in various parts of the country were against it for no other reason than they never had met a black person.
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  5. #25
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
    In my own experience, it rarely pays to "debate" with someone who feels what you consider to be hatred towards a particular person or group.

    First, they'll almost always disagree that what they feel is hate, so there's just about zero chance that you're going to change their minds. If you've done this long enough, you probably realize you're not going to win them over. Instead, you're probably hoping to influence the people watching your debate, not your opponent.

    Second, if you're the target or a member of the target group, you're necessarily going to be more emotionally involved in the discussion. While it may be just an intellectual exercise for your opponent, you're affected personally by the outcome of the debate as it plays out large on the national or world stage, and it can be exhausting. The more defensive and/or tired you get, the more angry you become. People for the most part don't like to read angry. People want funny. The angrier you get, the more people start tuning you out. Pretty soon you have no influence on anyone anymore, and you're just burned out and probably cynical.
    I get my heart hurt a lot on PH lately, and that's AFTER I placed most of the dedicated misery merchants on ignore.

    I knew Holocaust survivors, at least to say hello to. I was loved only once between my parents deaths at age 5 and my own adulthood, by a family I loved in return. Who were Jews.

    I cannot draw the emotional curtain across the hate directed at black Americans, Jews, GLBT people, etc.

    And I have never once not stood up for Muslim Americans if they were insulted in my presence, online or IRL.

    I am well-able to hold Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton in extreme contempt. Nobody needs to embrace hate in order to seek justice.
    Last edited by Madeline; 2nd January 2018 at 12:47 PM.
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  6. #26
    the "good" prag pragmatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    I also think there is such a thing as "ignorant hate." Meaning those who never met or unfamiliar with others or their ways hate them because they assume they are bad. I first heard about that last year when that movie "Loving" about interracial marriage was released. There were discussions as to how many people in various parts of the country were against it for no other reason than they never had met a black person.

    Would take that a step further and suggest most hate/bigotry is based on ignorance at some level.
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  7. #27
    Moderator HCProf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    I also think there is such a thing as "ignorant hate." Meaning those who never met or unfamiliar with others or their ways hate them because they assume they are bad. I first heard about that last year when that movie "Loving" about interracial marriage was released. There were discussions as to how many people in various parts of the country were against it for no other reason than they never had met a black person.
    I see the same feelings about Muslims. Most people form their opinions from the Media and how they portray terrorists without ever meeting or interacting with a Muslim at all.
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  8. #28
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eve1 View Post
    What if his sir name was completely unpronounceable? Maybe she just didn't want her children to have to go through life with a name that took a native Italian to pronounce. I know it sounds silly but sometimes if a sir name is next to impossible for the average person to pronounce or remember in a country or region and you plan to spend your life in that country or region it might be a good idea to try and make the next generations life a little easier. Just for shits and giggles lets say the guy wasn't Italian and his name was Wiener. What about that? What if the name is just plain open to ridicule in the country or region you are planning to spend your life? Then is it a deal breaker? Please don't tell me that you can keep your maiden name because of course you can but your kids are going to be cursed with his name or a hyphenated version which may actual be worse.
    I have never heard an Italian surname I couldn't pronounce. There's little doubt in my mind, Babba's story concerns a future MIL who feared her daughter and future grandchildren would be stigmatized as "dirty" Southern Europeans. It's probably impossible to fully convey what a virulent hatred that once represented.

    Now, I have heard a few Eastern European and Russian surnames that defied pronouncation. Apparently, vowels are disfavored there, lol.

    @The Man, @Helena.....amirite?
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  9. #29
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Urbanek View Post
    If hatred is so deeply ingrained in humans, then at some point it must have had some value in our evolution.
    Sure, and so does human aggression, even violence.

    One of the great philosophical questions of our day is whether they continue to serve a purpose, and if not, whether humans can consciously discard them.

  10. #30
    Moderator HCProf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    I get my heart hurt a lot on PH lately, and that's AFTER I placed most of the dedicated misery merchants on ignore.

    I knew Holocaust survivors, at least to say hello to. I was loved only once between my parents deaths at age 5 and my own adulthood, by a family I loved in return. Who were Jews.

    I cannot draw the emotional curtain across the hate directed at black Americans, Jews, GLBT people, etc.

    And I have never once not stood up for Muslim Americans if they were insulted in my presence, online or IRL.

    I am well-able to hold Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton in extreme contempt. Nobody needs to embrace hate in order to seek justice.
    I worked at Mt. Sinai for a few years...I am not sure if you were around before they closed. Mt Sinai was a Jewish hospital and I was able to take care of a few Holocaust survivors. It was a eye opener for me because I did not realize that some of them were medically experimented on while in the camps and a lot of them had such strange conditions, such as very aggressive cancers that nothing would treat, conditions related to malnutrition,etc. I don't think people realize just how horribly Jews suffered during the Holocaust until they see it up close.

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