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Thread: Is There Value In Debating Hate?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    So.....what's the internet version? What's the most effective action plan for combating hate online?
    Responding with scorn and piling on additional layers of hate and fear, drawing parallels between people and Hitler, Stalin, or Hillary Clinton, depending on who you are.

    Let's face it, here on the web, pointing out logical errors sure as hell doesn't do any good.
    Thanks from The Man and Madeline

  2. #32
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    I have never heard an Italian surname I couldn't pronounce. There's little doubt in my mind, Babba's story concerns a future MIL who feared her daughter and future grandchildren would be stigmatized as "dirty" Southern Europeans. It's probably impossible to fully convey what a virulent hatred that once represented.

    Now, I have heard a few Eastern European and Russian surnames that defied pronouncation. Apparently, vowels are disfavored there, lol.

    @<a href="http://politicalhotwire.com/member.php?u=16063" target="_blank">The Man</a>, @<a href="http://politicalhotwire.com/member.php?u=2029" target="_blank">Helena</a>.....amirite?
    Not sure... Slavic names are mostly simple. Ivanov(a at end for females), Petrov(a), Sidorov(a). Or, with -in(a): Pushkin(a), Yesenin(a), Putin(a) lol Or -ovsky/-evsky, common mainly among either ethnic Jews or, also, people of Polish heritage: Tukhachevsky, Dostoevsky, Dunaevsky, etc. For females, it would be -skaya, Dunaevskaya, etc.

    Among Muslims, the most common would be different variations on Mohammed. A Chechen could be Makhmudov or Magomedov, for example. A Tatar - Mametullin or something like that lol Female endings work same as for Slavs, since they follow the Slavic naming system, just added -a on the end.

    I think the only people who retain their own surname system separate from Slavs, are the Tuvans in Siberia.

    Head of Tuva Republic Sholban Kara-ool



    Some Tuvans may have Slavic first names, like general Sergey Shoigu, Putin's own defense minister, right

    But they, on principle, maintain their own ancient clan names. After all, many of these names are historic... Among others, Genghis Khan's head general, the guy who led his armies for him, was from Tuva, and his descendants also still live there today! No shit, they value their name and carry it proudly

    The people of ex-Soviet Turkmenistan republic in Central Asia have the weirdest names in that part of the world.

    For example, their President is Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedov, he is the one who gave Putin a puppy as a gift back in October

    Try pronouncing that name fast, good luck
    Thanks from Madeline

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    For example, their President is Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedov, he is the one who gave Putin a puppy as a gift back in October

    Try pronouncing that name fast, good luck
    It's a MANCHURIAN PUPPY! KILL IT!! It must never hear the words, "Here, boy!" or our President is doomed!

  4. #34
    Veteran Member Eve1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    I have never heard an Italian surname I couldn't pronounce. There's little doubt in my mind, Babba's story concerns a future MIL who feared her daughter and future grandchildren would be stigmatized as "dirty" Southern Europeans. It's probably impossible to fully convey what a virulent hatred that once represented.

    Now, I have heard a few Eastern European and Russian surnames that defied pronouncation. Apparently, vowels are disfavored there, lol.

    @The Man, @Helena.....amirite?
    @Madeline I don't know if there are any difficult Italian names to pronounce. I'm asking you to think of the scenario if that were the case. If the surname was just too hard to remember or say, would you have broken an engagement over the name, regardless of the ethnicity? I'm asking a straight up question.

  5. #35
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eve1 View Post
    @Madeline I don't know if there are any difficult Italian names to pronounce. I'm asking you to think of the scenario if that were the case. If the surname was just too hard to remember or say, would you have broken an engagement over the name, regardless of the ethnicity? I'm asking a straight up question.
    When I married, in 1974, my MIL was horrified that I did not change my last name. Partially because of the tradition, but what she said was "this is your chance to get rid of that ethnic-sounding name you have", by which she meant I could better conceal the fact that my family had been Catholics.

    Her opinion was not rare.

    There has always been a huge American WASP bias against the immigrants, and more specifically, the Irish and Italians. These people were not "white" in the sense that they did not enjoy the white privilege accorded to WASPs, until very late in the 20th century, when they were needed to swell the ranks.

    William F. Buckley Jr. is credited with the strategy of including them in GOP appeals that resulted in the election of Nixon, in 1968.

    There's a fabulous documentary about Buckley's convention debates with Gore Vidal called "Best of Enemies".

    I found it so enthralling, I bought a copy and have watched it several times.

    Point is, these old allegiances and antagonisms are passed along from one generation to the next, if you examine them closely.

    Personally, I hear nothing new in Adrianna Huffington's incessant screeds about Israel and the Jews that I didn't grow up hearing, and that my parents didn't hear from the likes of Charles Lindbergh and Henry Ford.

    It's just being recycled, which doesn't make it any less dangerous.
    Last edited by Madeline; 2nd January 2018 at 01:01 PM.

  6. #36
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    P.S. I should have broken the engagement, of course, but then I would not have had my daughter. I cannot regret giving birth to her.

    She's simply fabulous.

  7. #37
    Vexatious Correspondent Leo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    I get my heart hurt a lot on PH lately, and that's AFTER I placed most of the dedicated misery merchants on ignore.

    I knew Holocaust survivors, at least to say hello to. I was loved only once between my parents deaths at age 5 and my own adulthood, by a family I loved in return. Who were Jews.

    I cannot draw the emotional curtain across the hate directed at black Americans, Jews, GLBT people, etc.

    And I have never once not stood up for Muslim Americans if they were insulted in my presence, online or IRL.

    I am well-able to hold Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton in extreme contempt. Nobody needs to embrace hate in order to seek justice.
    Madeline, I have not suffered the severity of your circumstances, but I can relate on some level to your relationship with Jewish people. One of the strongest influences of my formative years was a very elderly German-Jewish lady, who narrowly escaped extermination in the Dachau concentration camp. My upbringing was a comparatively advantaged one, but from this lady I learnt many valuable things, including an appreciation of pictorial art (she was an accomplished artist who had many exhibitions in Britain,) as well as the performing arts. She was like another gran to me, and visited almost weekly at the boarding school in which I was entombed from an early age. I also learnt many aspects of Jewish culture from her without a hint of indoctrination. She, together with a Jewish professor of architecture, with whom I regularly played chess through high school, was responsible for the generally high regard in which I hold Jewish culture, and my perplexedness at anti-semitism throughout the world. How can a kind and hospitable people who value education and the arts, be held in such low esteem by so many people?

    One of the best life lessons I learnt was on the occasion where I made some silly remark about 'Pakkies'. It was a joke I heard at school (I was like 12 at the time,) but my German-Jewish 'gran' ever so gently reminded me that I have never been a member of a disadvantaged minority in my life, and given my circumstances; I would very likely never be. That was all she needed to say, and I am reminded of the implications of that to this day.

    And may I say that it is kind and accepting people such as yourself who are the ideal antidote to the myth of the 'Ugly American' so common across the world.
    Thanks from Madeline and Babba

  8. #38
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCProf View Post
    I worked at Mt. Sinai for a few years...I am not sure if you were around before they closed.
    I did not realize Mt. Sinai had closed! My mother had received some excellent surgical care there, back in the day.
    Thanks from Madeline

  9. #39
    Moderator HCProf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    I did not realize Mt. Sinai had closed! My mother had received some excellent surgical care there, back in the day.
    Yep...it closed a year after I left. 1999 Mt. Sinai was well known for cardiac care and surgery. It is a interesting story behind the closure. It was during the time when for profit companies were buying hospital systems right and left. The one that bought Mt Sinai was a Philadelphia company called PHS...or Physician Health Services. They basically raped and pillaged that hospital until nothing was left. The first thing they did, took out the kosher kitchen to save money. The Jewish patrons then left the system and started seeking care at other hospitals and it closed them down. I think the hospital lasted 2 years after the purchase. One thing I admired about Mt. Sinai was their commitment to customer service and when that was gone....the hospital crumbled.
    Thanks from Madeline

  10. #40
    the "good" prag pragmatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    I did not realize Mt. Sinai had closed! My mother had received some excellent surgical care there, back in the day.
    Appears there are lots of Mt Sinai hospital locations. And many are still active/operational.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_...al_(Manhattan)
    Last edited by pragmatic; 2nd January 2018 at 01:37 PM.
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey and Madeline

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