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Thread: Funding Single Payer

  1. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiteGuy View Post
    Bullshit, @pragmatic. Pure, unadulterated, USDA Prime bullshit.

    I simply do not believe that it would be crushingly expensive, to the point of unsustainability.... Every other First World country in the world affords UHC. Nearly every Second World nation can afford UHC.

    Why can the USA not afford to pay for the healthcare of it's citizens.
    It's already unaffordable. We pay vastly more per capita than any other country. We have a horribly funded senior health care entitlement program and we're at the dawn of the boomer retirement. I consider those characteristics of our health care system to be "unaffordable." Don't you? Passing single payer doesn't magically make anything "affordable" with no ill effect. Something else has to change along with the passage of single payer for it to work.

    Some people believe the U.S. Government lacks the political will to raise taxes to a level necessary to adequately fund single payer, or to reduce or control the costs of health care that get shelled out to health care providers, facilities, pharmaceutical companies, et cetera. The entire point of single payer should be to accomplish those things, i.e. to normalize the funding of the nation's health care (including by raising taxes to the extent necessary), and to reduce the amount of money that is already being dumped into health care (given it's so much more than any other country in the world). If those goals weren't accomplished, what would be the point of single payer? We'd still be wasting the same amount of money over-paying for health care.

  2. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    It's already unaffordable. We pay vastly more per capita than any other country. We have a horribly funded senior health care entitlement program and we're at the dawn of the boomer retirement. I consider those characteristics of our health care system to be "unaffordable." Don't you? Passing single payer doesn't magically make anything "affordable" with no ill effect. Something else has to change along with the passage of single payer for it to work.

    Some people believe the U.S. Government lacks the political will to raise taxes to a level necessary to adequately fund single payer, or to reduce or control the costs of health care that get shelled out to health care providers, facilities, pharmaceutical companies, et cetera. The entire point of single payer should be to accomplish those things, i.e. to normalize the funding of the nation's health care (including by raising taxes to the extent necessary), and to reduce the amount of money that is already being dumped into health care (given it's so much more than any other country in the world). If those goals weren't accomplished, what would be the point of single payer? We'd still be wasting the same amount of money over-paying for health care.
    Single payer reduces costs by about 50%. It creates a rational basis on which to ration care. No more transplants for people over 75. Expanded home health care to avoid skilled nursing home care.

    Etc.

  3. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    It's nice to have completely illusory options.
    Nothing illusory about it. Are you saying you wouldn't help your neighbor's kid?

  4. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post

    BTW, you are not rich, and plenty of tax dollars already get spent on you. Much of it paid by the poor.
    Prove your assertions.

  5. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoom View Post
    Nothing illusory about it. Are you saying you wouldn't help your neighbor's kid?
    I have 4 million neighbors, just in the city.

  6. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoom View Post
    Prove your assertions.
    He he he.

  7. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    You seem to be avoiding my posts. For someone who gripes as much about state collectivism and dependency, it's strange that you would leave Medicare and Medicaid alone. It would seem that someone with your disdain for federal entitlements would oppose things like Medicare and Medicaid.
    I'm not avoiding, I have no new response. We agree on most of the problems, just not the solutions.. yours cedes central government carte blanche over the financial side of one sixth of the US economy... with no concrete or fair ways to fund the program, no concrete ways to apply necessary cost/spending controls (incentives for healthy lifestyles, surcharges for risky lifestyles/self inflicted health problems?), no concrete ways to establish and police eligibility -- and expanding on that, no understanding of how such a system might act as a major attraction...a 'lure'... for more third world poverty, legal and illegal, in a political climate that is set aflame over any efforts to clamp down on either.... or how much more that might burden the would-be already burdened taxpayers.

    The reason I would leave Medicare and Medicaid alone is they are ingrained, and in that, a political third rail...it would be utterly foolish to make the entire population so dependent on a massive government program... which will always require what are sure to be extremely politically contentious battles over budgetary tweaks, trims, cuts, slashes, income and payroll tax hikes, Pigovian taxes, etc....not to mention the pandering....just imagine the political wars to come when the usual suspects start pandering to include 'employment aiding' tattoo removal, abortions, gender reassignment surgery, addiction rehab, shrinks, 'self esteem/mental health boosting' cosmetic surgery/dental work, etc, etc, ad nauseam forever ...

    Ignoring the constitutional issues I have with it (that I have with ALL of these 'entitlement' schemes), the ONLY way I could be dragged kicking and screaming into such a program is if the US shitcanned the current tax code and went to a 100% consumption based system...which would probably need to be about 18-20%, maybe more....maybe less, considering each of the two trillion dollars that go untaxed in the underground economy would be taxed at those rates as they're spent.
    Last edited by webrockk; 20th March 2017 at 08:08 PM.

  8. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    I have 4 million neighbors, just in the city.
    And they all have sick kids?

  9. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    He he he.
    I'm gonna call you out if you talk unsubstantiated shit. No offense, of course.
    Thanks from Madeline

  10. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by webrockk View Post
    I'm not avoiding, I have no new response. We agree on most of the problems, just not the solutions.. yours cedes central government carte blanche over the financial side of one sixth of the US economy... with no concrete or fair ways to fund the program, no concrete ways to apply necessary cost/spending controls (individual surcharges on willfully risky behaviors/self inflicted health problems?), no concrete ways to establish and police eligibility -- and expanding on that, no understanding of how such a system might act as a major attraction...a 'lure'... for more third world poverty, legal and illegal.... in a political climate that is aflame over any efforts to clamp down on either.... or how much more that might burden the would-be already burdened taxpayers.

    The reason I would leave Medicare and Medicaid alone is they are ingrained, and in that, a political third rail...it would be utterly foolish to make the entire population so dependent on a massive government program... that will always require what are sure to be extremely politically contentious economic tweeks, trims, slashes, income and payroll tax hikes, Pigovian taxes, etc....not to mention the pandering....just imagine the political wars to come when the usual suspects start pandering to include 'employment aiding' tattoo removal, abortions, sexual reassignment surgery, 'self esteem boosting' cosmetic surgery, etc, etc, ad nauseam forever ...

    Ignoring the constitutional issues I have with it (that I have with ALL of these 'entitlement' programs), the ONLY way I could be dragged kicking and screaming into such a system is if the US shitcanned the current tax system and went to a 100% consumption based system...which would probably need to be about 18-20%... maybe less, considering the $2 trillion dollars that go untaxed in the underground economy would be taxed at those rates as they're spent.
    Nope. Trading universal care for replacing the income tax with a consumption tax is not an option.

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