Members banned from this thread: Blah


Page 2 of 23 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 222
Thanks Tree171Thanks

Thread: Show me the best arguments for progressivism please.

  1. #11
    Shiny Purple Member namvet69's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    2,924
    Thanks
    2951

    From
    Englewood, Fl
    You just described to perfection the W presidency. The reason we have lost so much ground, among many other reasons, (it's never just one thing) is that the sameness of the Obama years sent folks searching for something exciting and different, but most of all, different.

    But, as is often the case, you don't know what you've got til it's gone. No greener pastures and no answers forthcoming from the right. Folks are realizing too late that sometime a steady hand at the wheel can be unexciting and can bore us to tears. What we got however is very exciting and anything but same old same old.

    Trouble is that we are now, for all purposes, ungoverned. We also have Mr Excitement at the wheel without a clue of how this all works. We are now teetering on the edge of nuclear war and, speaking of same old, we've got the GOP trying to shut down healthcare and make a mad grab at the funds that used to pay for it all so that it can never be brought back again. I can't imagine that this is what the bored stiff Trump voters were calling for but it's what they got. Maybe boredom isn't so bad after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Identity politics are never a good thing but it has enveloped the current progressivism in the democratic party.

    As opposed to classical liberalism which focused on people as a whole, think utilitarianism, the new democratic party focuses on groups which leads them to their war on this or war on that, it's extremely divisive (you're with us or against us) and its the reason they are losing so much.
    Thanks from Hollywood, Panzareta and labrea

  2. #12
    New Member
    Joined
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    237
    Thanks
    227

    From
    East TN
    Quote Originally Posted by nic View Post
    Good article. I like Thom and have listened to several of his programs. His commentary seems to me to be in the same vein as guys like Kyle Kulinski @ Secular Talk who I also like. The Justice Democrat movement might just have a future, or at less be a positive influence.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #13
    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2012
    Posts
    49,507
    Thanks
    9204

    From
    By the wall
    Quote Originally Posted by namvet69 View Post
    You just described to perfection the W presidency. The reason we have lost so much ground, among many other reasons, (it's never just one thing) is that the sameness of the Obama years sent folks searching for something exciting and different, but most of all, different.

    But, as is often the case, you don't know what you've got til it's gone. No greener pastures and no answers forthcoming from the right. Folks are realizing too late that sometime a steady hand at the wheel can be unexciting and can bore us to tears. What we got however is very exciting and anything but same old same old.

    Trouble is that we are now, for all purposes, ungoverned. We also have Mr Excitement at the wheel without a clue of how this all works. We are now teetering on the edge of nuclear war and, speaking of same old, we've got the GOP trying to shut down healthcare and make a mad grab at the funds that used to pay for it all so that it can never be brought back again. I can't imagine that this is what the bored stiff Trump voters were calling for but it's what they got. Maybe boredom isn't so bad after all.
    That's a very partisan response to a very complicated discussion.

    From a policy standpoint Trump has been anything but exciting, he hasn't done much of anything. The left's bitching and moaning about Trumps escapades is nothing but window dressing that doesn't matter one iota to anything from a historical perspective.

    And we are no closer to a nuclear war than we ever have been, that is just more partisan BS.

    As for identity politics that never surfaced for most of Bush's presidency, it was overridden by the war. Once that turned south you began to see the left embrace identity politics to demonstrate their hate for Bush, that's when the democratic party embraced that methodology and expanded it and that's where the democrats are now.

  4. #14
    New Member
    Joined
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    237
    Thanks
    227

    From
    East TN
    Quote Originally Posted by namvet69 View Post
    You just described to perfection the W presidency. The reason we have lost so much ground, among many other reasons, (it's never just one thing) is that the sameness of the Obama years sent folks searching for something exciting and different, but most of all, different.

    But, as is often the case, you don't know what you've got til it's gone. No greener pastures and no answers forthcoming from the right. Folks are realizing too late that sometime a steady hand at the wheel can be unexciting and can bore us to tears. What we got however is very exciting and anything but same old same old.

    Trouble is that we are now, for all purposes, ungoverned. We also have Mr Excitement at the wheel without a clue of how this all works. We are now teetering on the edge of nuclear war and, speaking of same old, we've got the GOP trying to shut down healthcare and make a mad grab at the funds that used to pay for it all so that it can never be brought back again. I can't imagine that this is what the bored stiff Trump voters were calling for but it's what they got. Maybe boredom isn't so bad after all.
    Idk, I imagine many Trump voters don't mind being bored at all. It must be incredibly boring to operate a rivet press (or whatever) at a factory that pays a good wage and offers some kind of retirement fund.

    What's not boring is loosing that job and trying to figure out how to support your family.

    I saw it first hand after NAFTA when the Levi's plant here closed. That was anything but boring. I worked in the trades, so it didn't hit me as hard as many others.

    To be clear, I was one of about 1,100 Hilary voters in the general in my district. Trump (obviously) won this rural TN district by a large margin. And while some of the people here might very well be the kind of ignorant hillbillies that leftists distain, many aren't.

    People here just want to live their lives as they always have. That's becoming harder for a lot of people. It might very well be foolish for these people to hope that Trump can somehow help them, but his message gave them more hope than Hillary's apparently.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #15
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    45,136
    Thanks
    21061

    From
    Vulcan
    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Yes ideologically they are but their ultimate goal, the benefit of the greater number of people is still the same, one just does it on an individual basis while utilitarianism does it with policy mostly.
    Sort of, but not quite. Classical liberalism has majority rule, but maintains the rights of the political minorities - and that does not benefit the greater number of people.
    Thanks from Panzareta, labrea and MaryAnne

  6. #16
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    45,136
    Thanks
    21061

    From
    Vulcan
    Quote Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
    I haven't read Locke or Mill in detail....
    You should at least read Second Treatise on Civil Government (Locke) and On Liberty (Mill). Classics. I haven't read them in over 20 years, but I still have my copies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
    I read a lot here and your one of my favorite posters.
    Thanks!

  7. #17
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    45,136
    Thanks
    21061

    From
    Vulcan
    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    You really should read these guys, all of our current political philosophy is based off of them. Add in Nozick and Kant to your readings also.
    Nozick I am not familiar with, but I read some Kant in two different philosophy classes (Modern Philosophy and Philosophy of Religion).

  8. #18
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    45,136
    Thanks
    21061

    From
    Vulcan
    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    The left's bitching and moaning about Trumps escapades is nothing but window dressing that doesn't matter one iota to anything from a historical perspective.
    I disagree. Trump's behavior has degraded the dignity of the presidency.

  9. #19
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    23,329
    Thanks
    19727

    From
    Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
    I haven't read Locke or Mill in detail, only excerpts and modern commentaries on their work.
    Many of those ideas seem compelling to me, the focus on the individual particularly.

    I read a lot here and your one of my favorite posters.

    What's curious to me is how the modern left seem to have abandoned the ideas of Locke and Mill in favor of (seemingly) derivatives of Marxism.

    I can't see how this could be a good idea, but I want to hear the best arguments.
    Modern liberalism is associated with Keynesianism, NOT Marxism. In fact, Keynes can well be considered the FOUNDER of modern liberalism, to distinguish it from classical liberalism.

    The most ESSENTIAL difference between the classical liberals and the modern liberals is in how they view the business cycle. The Keynesians see the business cycle as being somehow abnormal, and unnatural, and hence they favor activist government policies to 'smooth out' the fluctuations of the business cycle. In contrast, classical economists believe the business cycle is a normal and inherent part of industrial capitalism, and that it is UNWISE to tamper with it. The notion of Schumpeterian 'creative destruction' has come to be linked to that view, as Schumpeter was the great intellectual antagonist of Keynes.

    The Democratic Party may have a FRINGE, a FAR LEFT, that toys with Marxist ideas, but the mainstream of the Democratic Party is thoroughly Keynesian.
    Thanks from Babba, OldGaffer, Panzareta and 6 others

  10. #20
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    23,329
    Thanks
    19727

    From
    Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
    I'm a life long liberal. My father was a democrat, and active in local politics. As soon as I was old enough, I worked the polls with him. We were in the political minority in east TN, but there were a few victories. One was forcing the local government to allow other, secular documents to be placed along side the Ten Commandments display in the local court house.

    Lately though I'm hearing more convincing arguments coming from the right and those on the left that call themselves classical liberals.

    Commentators like Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, Larry Elder, Ben Shapiro, etc.. are putting out content that is making me question the progressive agenda that most on the left seem to embrace.

    I know there are a lot of progressives here so I though this would be a good place to ask for references to the cream of the crop of progressive arguments.

    I fear that because of YouTube/Google algorithms I might be missing compelling counter arguments to the content I'm watching lately.

    For example, does anyone have a link to a good video explaining why identity politics is a good thing? Perhaps some thoughtful refutations of the classical liberal ideas that the modern left seems to have abandoned?

    Or anything at all in that vein.

    Kindly leave out any arguments that rely on calling ideological opponents an "ist" of some kind in an attempt to shut down conversation. TIA.
    You're alluding to the difference between the New Left and the Old Left. Identity politics is associated with the New Left. The Old Left was the liberalism of FDR, of Harry Truman, of John F. Kennedy.

    Nothing inherently wrong with classical liberalism; Adam Smith's idea of the invisible hand that governs the workings of markets is STILL the best metaphor for understanding how markets work, on the small scale and in the short run. But it's been said that the invisible hand does not have a 'green thumb'. For instance, the market literally did not 'see' the ozone layer several miles above our heads, which protects us from UV radiation from the Sun. The ozone layer is a common resource, owned by EVERYONE and by NO ONE. So the market attaches no 'value', no 'price', to the ozone layer. Had we not used science and democracy to OVERRULE what markets were doing in that case, we would no longer have an ozone layer protecting us. The free market DOES have its limitations. While EVERY enlightened society would want to rely to a very great extent on markets, which are a very valuable error-correcting mechanism, it will not do to deify the market, as some classical liberals unfortunately do, and assume that it will NEVER get things wrong. Markets can and do FAIL, and we need to be able to recognize those cases.....
    Thanks from Babba, OldGaffer, Amelia and 1 others

Page 2 of 23 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The failure of progressivism in one simple chart...
    By Raoul_Duke in forum Political Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 13th December 2013, 05:56 AM
  2. Progressivism
    By Justoffal in forum Political Discussion
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 27th June 2013, 08:08 AM
  3. Another two by four to the head of progressivism...
    By Raoul_Duke in forum Economics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 8th May 2013, 03:40 AM
  4. The Best Books to Combat Progressivism.
    By Angel of Dearth in forum Political Discussion
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 3rd September 2012, 02:50 PM
  5. Progressivism (or liberalism)
    By Blueneck in forum Political Discussion
    Replies: 195
    Last Post: 10th May 2012, 10:53 AM

Tags for this Thread


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed